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Emp_Fab

I know some of you simply aren't going to believe what I'm saying in this post, but it's the absolute truth - on my dog's life (and anyone who knows me knows how I feel about him).  I don't know what I can say to dispel the ideas of some that I'm just a troll.  I think several of you believe so passionately that my motives are malicious that nothing at all could convince you otherwise.  I'm fully expecting the first reply to this to be "...and here comes the excuses / whatever".

I'm 57.  I come from a family where open discussions were the norm - anything and everything could be talked about, viewpoints aired, explanations offered for those viewpoints and sometimes opinions would be changed as a result - sometimes not.  All of this would be without animosity and without feeling attacked or offended when your own viewpoint was queried.  I've always found it very educational and fascinating to try to understand others' views - and the more they differ from mine, the more interesting it is.

Now, I get it that not everyone feels like me and for some, having their viewpoint even questioned is seen as a personal insult.  Some see the world in black and white - 'you're either with us, or against us', some immediately put up defences, being hyper-vigilant for anything that could be taken as offensive so they can jump straight into their comfort-zone of dismissing everything counter to their beliefs outright.  That's a lot easier than any inward analysis of one's own position.  Many though are happy to stop and think and question things.

I'm also aware that this place isn't my personal playground and that many folk simply aren't comfortable discussing anything controversial and to that end, I genuinely now try to avoid subjects that definitely are divisive, no matter how interesting it may be to discuss viewpoints on the subjects.  The problem now for me though is "What constitutes a divisive topic?".  It would appear that I'm not very good at answering that question in the same way most of you would!

For example, my Germany thread...  I honestly didn't think that would produce the uproar it did.  Truthfully I didn't.  Despite the beliefs of some here, I hate it when things kick off.  Once I saw the reactions to my post weren't going to calm down I asked twice in the thread for the mods to close it.  If I relished disharmony here, that's the last thing I would have done.

Maybe I'm 'on the spectrum' as they say...  Maybe I'm lacking some basic insight as what people are happy to chat about and what is considered taboo?  It's either that or this place has descended into somewhere where we'd better restrict our off-topic discussions to "What's your favourite colour?".  Even then, I'm no longer certain that would not result in a punch-up.

I honestly don't know what is safe to chat about anymore - which opinions are considered acceptable and which will be shouted down in a tirade of ad-homs.  I have to admit that the whole idea of "acceptable opinions" is concerning.  If any of us hold opinions that might not be "acceptable", do we just keep them to ourselves for fear of abuse?  Do we only discuss 'safe' topics because there are too many here who can only respond with aggression?  Or, do we discuss things as adults, however uncomfortable the subject or the opinions of some, so we can gain insights into why these beliefs came about and hopefully learn something about each other.

Once upon a time, I thought this was possible but I don't think it is anymore - certainly not on this forum anyway.  The instant anyone expresses nonconforming beliefs, they are beaten with insults.

I don't know where to go with this now.  I'm clearly unable to make a sensible decision on what I can talk about - maybe I ought to message a mod first to check if I'm thinking of asking anything more divisive than "What's your favourite flavour of jam?".

I'm not an idiot - I can see the responses are largely critical of me and I'm genuinely sorry if my insensitivity has caused trouble.  Despite the entrenched conviction of some that I'm trolling and relish the trouble, I genuinely hate it when my threads go awry, I honestly don't want to be the spark that ignites yet another flame war.  Anyway - I'm sorry.  I clearly have more to learn about what is considered an acceptable posting style on here.

poopot

PC_Dave said:

I get all that, but your reacting to it isn't going to make it go away or stop it from happening, it's just going to annoy you. If you don't like something, flag it and/or PM the mods and let them do their job - they're the ones that make and enforce the rules. If people don't sign up to the forum because of it, then that's their decision. If a strange thread pops up and no one reacts to it apart from flagging it, it will quickly disappear and everyone can get on with their lives and carry on bashing Chappers and JoBo. 

PS - can someone please buy the guitars I have for sale please?

Fair points... I suspect that thread had more flags than a royal wedding, which is why it got closed in the first place!!!!

Viewing on a mobile, as i do (and prolly a lot of others as well ) it doesn't show you who started the thread... If id known it was an emp thread I wouldn't have clicked on it, wouldn't have read it and wouldn't have been compelled to point out what a bellend of a thread it was!!!! but heres the thing, members shouldn't have to be wary of what threads they click on... in reality that thread should not have been on here in the first place imo...

I know I have the tattoo of "arsehole" on me on this forum, If I had posted that, how long would it have lasted? How long would it have been before it was closed and a mail from the mods received? Ive been coolered for less than that thread title alone... same for anyone else I guess...

Yeah, There was a pile on from folk.. almost a "Mob" if you like... but it was deserved and the mob is different everytime... the OP is usually the common denominator. 

I posted a thread yesterday asking what was acceptable. there were some good points made... Emp logs on and within seconds starts a ruck and gets the thread closed... all the while gaslighting and playing the victim...

I realise  this is all being aired on a thread he started as well... Emp... you're a troll plain and simple. thats not a dig, its a statement of fact. and before you kick off, Ive already flagged my post here.

vasselmeyer

Emp_Fab said:

I'm not an idiot - I can see the responses are largely critical of me and I'm genuinely sorry if my insensitivity has caused trouble.  Despite the entrenched conviction of some that I'm trolling and relish the trouble, I genuinely hate it when my threads go awry, I honestly don't want to be the spark that ignites yet another flame war.  Anyway - I'm sorry.  I clearly have more to learn about what is considered an acceptable posting style on here.

And there it is...

I bloody knew that was coming. "Me?" What did I do wrong?" hand-wringing bollocks. If you are really TRULY honest about learning, then next time you start a post just think to yourself "Is this adding to the value of this place" and the answer isn't overwhelmingly "Yes", then don't.

Me...I doubt it. You've got plenty of previous for this kind of shit and I predict we'll see another one coming soon. Trolls gonna troll.

Paul_C

The big problem, as always, is that there are lots of people who either love to argue or refuse to let go of an argument (or both), which is why one post started a row which has started two other threads just so certain people can continue that row.

If I was in charge I'd be banging a number of heads together and telling them to pack it in, but I recognise that it rarely works as people are an utter pain in the arse and never listen

Roland

Paul_C said:

If I was in charge I'd be banging a number of heads together and telling them to pack it in, but I recognise that it rarely works as people are an utter pain in the arse and never listen  

It tends not to work with the problem people. We get a mixture of:
1. He started it.
2. Surely you’re clever enough to see that I was joking,
3. Why are you victimising me?

My favourite was “and you can fuck off too!” 

LastMantra

I'd like to think we can discuss any subject like adults.

Gilly

Roland said:

Paul_C said:

If I was in charge I'd be banging a number of heads together and telling them to pack it in, but I recognise that it rarely works as people are an utter pain in the arse and never listen  

It tends not to work with the problem people. We get a mixture of:
1. He started it.
2. Surely you’re clever enough to see that I was joking,
3. Why are you victimising me?

My favourite was “and you can fuck off too!” 

I thought you’d just tightened up the rules? Why don’t you just follow the process then?

I got coolered just for lol’ing one post (which other people also lol’d by the way).

Yet others seem to get away with repeatedly throwing insults around and breaking the rules. It doesn’t seem like you apply your sanctions very consistently.

boogieman

LastMantra said:

<snip>

Fair enough. I'd have thought having set rules and sticking to them would mean less work, but what do I know.

"Don't be a dick" means nothing really other than mods decide what goes and can be applied in different ways. 

Personally I don’t want a highly moderated forum. Go on TGP and then see if that’s the sort of thing you want here. Say anything vaguely contentious on there and it will immediately get you chucked off. “Don’t be a dick” seems a decent compromise rule to me. We could make it “don’t be an asshole” if that works better, but I’m sure most people get the gist of what it means without it being spelled out in infinite detail. 

LastMantra

boogieman said:

LastMantra said:

<snip>

Fair enough. I'd have thought having set rules and sticking to them would mean less work, but what do I know.

"Don't be a dick" means nothing really other than mods decide what goes and can be applied in different ways. 

Personally I don’t want a highly moderated forum. Go on TGP and then see if that’s the sort of thing you want here. Say anything vaguely contentious on there and it will immediately get you chucked off. “Don’t be a dick” seems a decent compromise rule to me. We could make it “don’t be an asshole” if that works better, but I’m sure most people get the gist of what it means without it being spelled out in infinite detail. 

Neither do I. The system we have isn't bad, but any system will have it's problems. 

LastMantra

@Emp_Fab are you aware of the work of Adam Curtis? I really think you would find it interesting. I can't remember which one off the top of my head but one of his documentary films goes into the kind of thing you were talking about in the "other thread".

Roland

Gilly said:

I thought you’d just tightened up the rules? Why don’t you just follow the process then?.

We are following process. You will see from @digitalscream’s comment on page 1 that Emp Fab has reached the end of the process, and is one step from a ban.

monquixote

Emp_Fab said:

I'm 57.  I come from a family where open discussions were the norm - anything and everything could be talked about, viewpoints aired, explanations offered for those viewpoints and sometimes opinions would be changed as a result - sometimes not.  All of this would be without animosity and without feeling attacked or offended when your own viewpoint was queried.  I've always found it very educational and fascinating to try to understand others' views - and the more they differ from mine, the more interesting it is.

Now, I get it that not everyone feels like me and for some, having their viewpoint even questioned is seen as a personal insult.  Some see the world in black and white - 'you're either with us, or against us', some immediately put up defences, being hyper-vigilant for anything that could be taken as offensive so they can jump straight into their comfort-zone of dismissing everything counter to their beliefs outright.  That's a lot easier than any inward analysis of one's own position.  Many though are happy to stop and think and question things.

Essentially you are saying "I'm sorry that you people are all incapable of discussing controversial topics".

That's clearly nonsense . The thread on "open relationships" is clearly extremely controversial and yet it's gone relatively smoothly.
The problem is partially the subjects you choose and mostly the way you post about them. It's clear you struggle to recognise when you are doing this so lay off the controversial subjects. 

Coming to the conclusion "Everyone else has a problem and not me" is not going to result in a positive outcome.

Gilly

Roland said:

Gilly said:

I thought you’d just tightened up the rules? Why don’t you just follow the process then?.

We are following process. You will see from @digitalscream’s comment on page 1 that Emp Fab has reached the end of the process, and is one step from a ban.

There were many more people involved as you well know. 

Anyway, I don’t really care. It’s just the pretending to be fair and unbiased part that bugs me really.

Handsome_Chris

@monquixote ,  I would like to counter your argument from a place of logic that I hope appeals to the soul too.

Was it Michael Manfield QC, a man The Legal 500 described as 'The king of human rights work",  who once said "I was only saying wot I wos finking!"?

Powerful stuff that maybe we should all consider.

darthed1981

FWIW, as I contributed to the thread, I thought there were two potential valid topics that we could have covered, if the thread had been started slightly differently.

1.  Pointless, self-destructive and ignorant prejudices and how they hurt humankind as a whole.
2.  Perspectives on 20th century history, particularly the British obsession with WW2, and how we can correct those perspectives where needed.

It came across though as "I'm afraid of the Germans because of their history, who's with me?" - which is the dictionary definition of Xenophobia.  It's not just an opinion, it's an extreme and prejudiced statement.

I could post "Robbie William's swing album is the worst thing to happen to music since the puritans" and it would be an opinion, some people would agree with me, some no doubt love it for some reason, but it's also the sort of innocuous discussion you might find on a guitar forum.

I'm not sure it's credible that the controversy was unexpected, given what was posted.

I thought the mods were pretty understanding, and  this forum is well run and a good place to be due to the "light touch" policy. 

If anything some consideration should be given to ensuring it doesn't appear in future google searches, as it is hardly representative of TFB in general, and could be prejudicial to general perception of the community.

VimFuego

"I could post "Robbie William's swing album is the worst thing to happen to music since the puritans" and it would be an opinion, some people would agree with me, some no doubt love it for some reason, but it's also the sort of innocuous discussion you might find on a guitar forum."

bit harsh on the puritans there frankly. 

Shrews

If people think somebody is a troll, then why respond to their posts?

Here's how it goes:

- troll posts something trollish
- somebody accuses the troll of posting something trollish
- many jump in to support the accuser
- troll sits back lighting a cigar

It's different if you're not sure if the poster is a troll or not, but when you know somebody is, then what's the point in responding?

Handsome_Chris

VimFuego said:

"I could post "Robbie William's swing album is the worst thing to happen to music since the puritans" and it would be an opinion, some people would agree with me, some no doubt love it for some reason, but it's also the sort of innocuous discussion you might find on a guitar forum."

bit harsh on the puritans there frankly. 

Especially with their hit singles, Ideal World, and the others.

poopot

Gilly said:

I got coolered just for lol’ing one post (which other people also lol’d by the way).

Nothing to do with the abusive DM’s you sent then?  

monquixote

Shrews said:

If people think somebody is a troll, then why respond to their posts?

Here's how it goes:

- troll posts something trollish
- somebody accuses the troll of posting something trollish
- many jump in to support the accuser
- troll sits back lighting a cigar

It's different if you're not sure if the poster is a troll or not, but when you know somebody is, then what's the point in responding?

Unfortunately human nature is such that "Just ignore trolls" doesn't work. 
If it did people wouldn't bother being trolls. 

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png