Pre CBS Strats - Or Not

ThePrettyDamned

blueskunk said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

I think we accepted the Chibsons could be pretty low on quality. These folks are saying everything is dead on for the same guitars from that time period, using the same machinery, old woods, same screws, pickup depth etc etc etc even copying some of the well know fuck ups !! 

On a side note, I like this guy and watched a few of his videos recently. He “rumbled” Paul David and the Hendrix Strat which apparently wasn’t a Hendrix Strat. 

But quality has nothing to do with it, does it? To be honest, this makes a bit of a mockery over how hard it is to build a good strat or tele. These are good strats and teles, but with other little details to make them harder to tell apart from vintage models - then they have the logo applied making them fake. 

All these guitars need to do is not use a Fender logo. They would still be the same super anally retentive vintage style build, but they would be legal and could sell on their own merit. Instead, they undermine themselves by selling them as fakes. 

They are not interesting guitars to me (accurately copying routing cock ups, for example, doesn't make the guitar better or worse - it just makes it harder to tell it's a fake and therefore the only reason to buy one of these is to pass it off as genuine). But I'm sure they're very good - building a good strat or tele isn't hard, they were designed for it. So why do they have the Fender logo? 

Tis bizarre to me, and makes the vintage guitar market one to avoid. 

BillDL

It's a shame that China Guitar Sceptic's speech is beginning to be affected by his neurological disorder as you will have seen in screen text right at the start of his video and below his more recent videos:

"Disclaimer: If my voice sounds at all peculiar it is because I have an upper motor neuron disorder and speech can be an issue. I try my best but it is getting more evident."

It's even more of a shame that he feels the need to almost apologise for is condition, but I realise why.  There are so many trolls out there in YouTube that would feel the need to ridicule his speech, so he's as well explaining it up front. I hope he can keep going because I have found some of his videos quite interesting in the past, altough I haven't watched any for about 18 months and was quite surprised to hear the changes in his speech.

As to the subject of the video, I think that this line he is either reading verbatim or paraphrasing from the guitar maker's website says it all:

"The neck to neck pocket fit will be perfect, unless you want it to look sloppy like many originals".

He mentions that because originals had a 7.25" fingerboard radius, if a customer wants a larger radius the company will start with a 7.25" one and THEN make it look as though the board has been reprofiled during a later refret.

I can understand that there are some people who would give their left arm for the chance to own and play a vintage instrument, and that this option is the nearest they will ever get, but this nonsense about being able to deliberately reproduce defects on request is bound to lead to people downline later being sold fakes.  Who wants an electric guitar with a sloppy neck fit?  There's no logical reason that a company would choose to deliberately reproduce ragged routs and tooling marks made by blunt bits when they are hidden under a scratchplate.  I think it's really irresponsible, but the company is probably so preoccupied by their quest to give customers a taste of a true vintage that they have conveniently disregarded fraudulent selling in years to come.

maltingsaudio

Haven’t spent time with a proper vintage guitar for about 10 years, however had the opportunity to play a genuine 62 Strat on Sunday for about half an hour. Honestly couldn’t tell any difference between it and the modern custom shop that was there from the playing experience. My mate sounded better on the 62 when he played it to me but he’s a better player anyway

Sassafras

Wouldn't these fall under the Scotland Yard Art and Antiques remit regardless of whether the makers are not intentionally selling them as genuine?

stickyfiddle

I like guitars that feel old. But I also like modern features like tall frets and 9.5" radii and hardware that's really well engineered to work absolutely as well as it can. 

I can appreciate the effort and attention to detail that goes into getting the minutiae correct, like the exact same tooling marks and identical drilling positions for cable runs etc. But I don't understand why you'd care about that stuff when buying a musical instrument - I'm assuming these fakes cost very nearly as much as a real old one, and a lot more than a great guitar that is otherwise the same but without these tiny internal details. So why bother? 

Side note: I did notice that Cesar Gueikian mentioned the he's fine with refretting vintage guitars in a recent interview. I'm glad because I'd far rather see old stuff getting maintained sensibly in a way that maintains their ability to be used as musical instruments and not just investment pieces. A vintage guitar in a secure vault is no use to anyone. 

wellsyboy

blueskunk said:

@wellsyboy Excuse my ignorance, when you say you would remove the logo, why? Does it say Fender? 

Yes it does - for some reason he choses to make them as exact copies - if I made a guitar that good I would want to put my name on it. Ironically he has a image and content copyright warning at the bottom of his webpage - more front than selfridges!

poopot

wellsyboy said:

blueskunk said:

@wellsyboy Excuse my ignorance, when you say you would remove the logo, why? Does it say Fender? 

Yes it does - for some reason he choses to make them as exact copies - if I made a guitar that good I would want to put my name on.

Ironically… if he stuck his own logo on it he’d get a cease and desist from fender very quickly!…

fender don’t really care about the logos as long as it’s not “Your logo”

wellsyboy

poopot said:

wellsyboy said:

blueskunk said:

@wellsyboy Excuse my ignorance, when you say you would remove the logo, why? Does it say Fender? 

Yes it does - for some reason he choses to make them as exact copies - if I made a guitar that good I would want to put my name on.

Ironically… if he stuck his own logo on it he’d get a cease and desist from fender very quickly!…

fender don’t really care about the logos as long as it’s not “Your logo”

Yeah I suspected that might be it

guitars4you

A couple of questions - anyone know how much the finished article is - Do they sell just the parts - ie body/neck/hardware/electrics

One worry, if they are good as suggested, then someone can then buy a completed 'fake' guitar, to now put a 'fake' part, be it body/neck/hardware, onto a 'player grade/non-original' Strat to make this guitar now 'authentic original' and worth more money - Hope that makes sense  - Then selling off the other 'fake' parts as 'original' to recover some of their outlay - ie can they use such parts/woodwork to make their existing guitar original again  

Can of worms and I'm glad it is not an area I operate in these days - It got scary when you started to realise you do not know enough

Winny_Pooh

RaymondLin said:

Winny_Pooh said:

The thing is, the wood is not the same and more importantly,while you can find the same grade steel, IMO you can't cast magnets the same way nor create 42/43 gauge wire. No one can

We landed a robot on Mars which we can remote control, we can make a wire.

Thinking like this really irrates me because it is so irrational.  Human engineering did not peak in the 50’s.  I am typing this on a computer (phone) less than half an inch thick.

And you are telling me we can’t make a wire?

Can you imagine how dumb we are not be able to do that?  You just need to pay someone enough to worth their while.

As for wood, it’s organic, it’s like no 2 humans are the same except twins….  Although…did you know all the Metasequoia in the US are from a handful trees originally found in China in 1941?  So the genetics of all those trees in the US can be traced back quite easily.

I see this argument all the time and I dont totally disagree, however, no one Is spending money trying to exactly cast magnets and create the same wire....so practically speaking "we cant". Production of most components and raw materials are from China where the make up of Alnico 5 probably varies just depending on who makes it, and we have no idea. IMO the pickups are the single biggest factor as to why vintage Fenders sound different (and sometimes better).

As to your point about enginneering. The kind of engineering used in production of items in the valve age is partially lost...

Take microphones, (like with guitar valves) no one has the large scale facilities or know how to precisely recreate niche objects like the vf14 tube in a U47 and so we "cant" create exact copies. Some of this knowledge is also lost to time as a different generation of engineers in analog technology are no longer around. Other examples: neumann nickel capsules in km54's (only gefell attempt these and results are barely identical) and the kind of geniuses that designed the ck12 capsule at AKG.

blueskunk

@guitars4you ;

I am clueless about where to get them, how much they are or if they sell parts. The video popped up into my YouTube and I found it very interesting. 

A can of worms indeed mate. 

Admittedly, I don’t know much about the vintage market and who the players are. Please excuse me if this is a daft question but, how come the lawyers
for such a large company like Fender are not out to shut these people down. 

Are these guitars really up to scratch compared to a Custom Shop Vintage models, how much do you think they are once all done and dusted? I can’t remember if the CGS mentioned which forum he found all this information from but  I’ll have another look later. 

RaymondLin

Winny_Pooh said:

RaymondLin said:

Winny_Pooh said:

The thing is, the wood is not the same and more importantly,while you can find the same grade steel, IMO you can't cast magnets the same way nor create 42/43 gauge wire. No one can

We landed a robot on Mars which we can remote control, we can make a wire.

Thinking like this really irrates me because it is so irrational.  Human engineering did not peak in the 50’s.  I am typing this on a computer (phone) less than half an inch thick.

And you are telling me we can’t make a wire?

Can you imagine how dumb we are not be able to do that?  You just need to pay someone enough to worth their while.

As for wood, it’s organic, it’s like no 2 humans are the same except twins….  Although…did you know all the Metasequoia in the US are from a handful trees originally found in China in 1941?  So the genetics of all those trees in the US can be traced back quite easily.

I see this argument all the time and I dont totally disagree, however, no one Is spending money trying to exactly cast magnets and create the same wire....so practically speaking "we cant". Production of most components and raw materials are from China where the make up of Alnico 5 probably varies just depending on who makes it, and we have no idea. IMO the pickups are the single biggest factor as to why vintage Fenders sound different (and sometimes better).

As to your point about enginneering. The kind of engineering used in production of items in the valve age is partially lost...

Take microphones, (like with guitar valves) no one has the large scale facilities or know how to precisely recreate niche objects like the vf14 tube in a U47 and so we "cant" create exact copies. Some of this knowledge is also lost to time as a different generation of engineers in analog technology are no longer around. Other examples: neumann nickel capsules in km54's (only gefell attempt these and results are barely identical) and the kind of geniuses that designed the ck12 capsule at AKG.

The real truth is

"We, as a human race can make the wire, companies who make them don't think they are profitable enough to do so"

It is a massive difference than "We Can't".

I am pretty sure all these engineering are not lost, if it's there we can reverse engineer it, I am sure there are books written on it.  To say it's lost means no documentation was ever written and we are too stupid to reverse engineer a valve.  Like all of the sudden the people in the 1920's are smarter.  As for using the "identical" defence, it's analogue right? is this like claiming no 2 Gibsons are identical and then shocked to find out that no 2 Gibsons are identical?! But uses the same argument to say old Bursts are better....no, it's different.  Different does not automatically equates better.   The fact that valves are analogue MEANS it will not be identical.

Please.  This is so stupid and absurd.

We can clone a mammal, we can make a wire. 

grappagreen

I've heard a couple of people on my vintage Strat that make it sound the best guitar in the world. When I play it it sounds as bad as any other guitar I have played. It's not the darn guitar that matters to any significant degree.

As for these slavish copies I just don't get it.. but that's just me. Given that there is a market for this stuff in my view they should use their own logo...

Si

duotone

@BillDL ;
I’ve seen some of his older (2+ years) videos in the past.
Last night I thought that the latest video had a different person presenting on ‘his’ channel. Really sad to see his decline over that short period of time.

duotone

@blueskunk ;
@guitars4you ;
I had a quick Google yesterday & I’m pretty sure it is from: https://precbsguitars.com/ The pictures seem to match what CGS showed on his video. 

blueskunk

duotone said:

@blueskunk ;
@guitars4you ;
I had a quick Google yesterday & I’m pretty sure it is from: https://precbsguitars.com/ The pictures seem to match what CGS showed on his video. 

Cheers man. 

So, how are they getting away with it then?? Wouldn’t Fender want the lawyers on this and shut it down??

Confused dot com!!

guitars4you

duotone said:

@blueskunk ;
@guitars4you ;
I had a quick Google yesterday & I’m pretty sure it is from: https://precbsguitars.com/ The pictures seem to match what CGS showed on his video. 

That looks like it is them and as you say pics match the youtube clips

guitars4you

blueskunk said:

duotone said:

@blueskunk ;
@guitars4you ;
I had a quick Google yesterday & I’m pretty sure it is from: https://precbsguitars.com/ The pictures seem to match what CGS showed on his video. 

Cheers man. 

So, how are they getting away with it then?? Wouldn’t Fender want the lawyers on this and shut it down??

Confused dot com!!

I'm not in anyway a lawyer and don't know enough about IPR etc - But I'm guessing that as they are making 'replica's of a pre-CBS model and it makes me think that Fender don't have all the 'legal registration' info for outside the USA - Some of the appropriate trade marks/etc were not registered prior to the CBS buy out for overseas - Just a guess - There was some talk about this in the 80's when Tokai first came on the scene - They were not 'illegal' in all countries, but Fender did have a shipment impounded that arrived in the USA

Maybe Fender don't know about it 

There was a luthier in the UK, from NE area - Nigel Crinson - Who made some very fine 'NoCasters' about 20 years ago - First few had Fender logo's, then the same guitar had his name on them - Then he made a minor change to the headstock for differentiation, but a threat to stop letter from Fender UK finished it all - He did not have enough funds to defend any right he might have had - So easier to quit - But his had not gone into the same 'detail' these guys have done some of the details

guitars4you

blueskunk said:

@guitars4you ;

I am clueless about where to get them, how much they are or if they sell parts. The video popped up into my YouTube and I found it very interesting. 

A can of worms indeed mate. 

Admittedly, I don’t know much about the vintage market and who the players are. Please excuse me if this is a daft question but, how come the lawyers
for such a large company like Fender are not out to shut these people down. 

Are these guitars really up to scratch compared to a Custom Shop Vintage models, how much do you think they are once all done and dusted? I can’t remember if the CGS mentioned which forum he found all this information from but  I’ll have another look later. 

The first factor to remember with CS is just about all the parts are marked accordingly so they can't be passed as vintage and used on a vintage guitar to make sure it is 'original' again - So they are not designed to be 'fake' in the same way as the items mentioned here 

Are they better ? - Define better - Regarding an exact DNA replica of the real thing then no, but close enough for us to be all excited - Are they better regarding build quality, playability then in many cases yes - Not all old examples are good - Many pre-CBS models are mediocre to play - Tonal wise then I've heard some great old ones, and again I've heard some very par for the course

The plus factor with CS is that with tweaks like 9.5" radius + bigger frets then they are generally more user friendly to play - As it happens, some of the best pre-CBS models I've played have been the non-original player grade examples, whereby appropriate tweaks have made the guitar again more 'user friendly' 

CS offer a vintage flavoured guitar at a 'realistic' price compared to an original example, be it kosher or player grade - Plus you can change parts/pick-ups, pots etc without having to worry about any/much impact on the value - Change a knackered pot on an original 62 Strat and you loose money 

RaymondLin

I think psychology has a big part to play here.  I hear "Vintage is best", it's pretty much the same as people say "old movies are better / they don't make them like they used to".

The important point left out is that there is a LOT of crap, and I mean a LOT of crap guitars made back then and a lot of crap movies made too.  What we tend to remember and what tend to stand the test of time are the good ones.  And these few good ones gave the impression that all the others from that era are also great.

Which is not true.