Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

spev11

Crazed_Fandango said:

I'm a regular viewer and hold their knowledge in high regard, but something Mick said today really got my attention and was a wake up call....

The question was: what is the most important pedal on the board.  PRS said that the tuner was, but Mick said if you can't tune the guitar you shouldn't be playing it.

Holding my hands up here...I cannot without a tuner, as I've always used a tuner so never learned to.

How many others are in the same situation or do you feel it's a necessary skill, given that tuners are so readily available?

Thoughts, comments, brickbats.....

  Then Mick is either poking to get comments or being rather elitist. Who's to say (as someone else said) who should and shouldnt play a guitar? I've taken it up later in life (i'm 52 and started seriously 2 years ago having dabbled badly on and off for years) and suffer with tinitus so from one hour to the next have variable hearing response. This often makes pitch differences difficult to recognise and I still struggle to tune by ear ( im attempting Justin's ear training and struggling quite badly). According to Mick (and few on here) I should just give up and never be able to call myself a musician ( I wouldnt at the moment but thats my call and no one elses).
  It's this kind of elitist attitude that puts people off, its a useful skill but nobody should deem it a gate that if you cant open then you ain't coming in the club.
 

Handsome_Chris

I'm goosed then.  I've always used a tuner to tune to the correct pitch.

Are the band supposed to tune by ear before they get on stage? 

joeyowen

I think it is just part of being in the spotlight.  Mick has probably said a million things I agree with, and I'm almost sure it was meant in jest, and he doesn't actually mean it, it was more of a "learn to tune your guitar" dig.

We are all just quick at picking up on things sometimes.  He's a genuinely likable dude.  But I still stand by what I said, it isn't up to anyone what you do.  If you play guitar and enjoy it, awesome

stickyfiddle

To those saying it's unimportant, is it that you can't be bothered, or can't hear when a guitar is in or out of tune, or something else? (genuine question)

I don't think anyone here is saying you should be tuning by ear on stage - frankly that's amateurish and also not accurate enough at volume. But the ability to tell when notes are the same and where they're not is really hugely important. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever play a guitar and can't enjoy the whole thing if you can't because that would be absurd. But I'd also say that I'd have a hard time playing in a band with anyone who couldn't hear when something isn't right. 

I will add though that while PRS can be a little hard work he's dead right on "hand tone" and how different people can sound so different through different rigs.

S56035

I have limited time to play guitar.  A tuner keeps that time a maximum rather than faffing around.

bermudianbrit

I am a completely blind player and therefore cannot use a tuning device without sound in any context. As such, I've really developed that auditory sense of when something is out and can retune very quickly if needed. But the fact is that if I could use a pedal, I 100% would do so. If I were playing set after set every night I would probably get an Evertune just to avoid this issue in a professional context though. Admittedly it is one of the reasons why Les Paul's aren't my favourite instruments.

Handsome_Chris

JohnCordy said:

It's a comment that makes almost no sense

@JohnCordy , is that why there is no statement to back it up?  It reminds me of this hilarity:



Note: before anyone chooses to get offended, I am not trying to hint at anyone performing any misdeeds.

JohnCordy

@Handsome_Chris this is absolutely the last thing we wanted to happen

BillDL

bermudianbrit said:

I am a completely blind player and therefore cannot use a tuning device without sound in any context. As such, I've really developed that auditory sense of when something is out and can retune very quickly if needed. But the fact is that if I could use a pedal, I 100% would do so. If I were playing set after set every night I would probably get an Evertune just to avoid this issue in a professional context though. Admittedly it is one of the reasons why Les Paul's aren't my favourite instruments.

This comment by @bermudianbrit about being blind has really got me thinking about how fortunate I am and also about whether there would be a market for an electronic guitar tuner that vibrates slowly if the note is flat, faster if it is sharp, and maybe pulses when it is exactly at the pitch.  Anybody who has ever held a Rampant Rabbit adult "toy" will know how different the vibrations can be on its different settings and speeds.  I see no reason why a tuner could not use the same technology, which is actually very primitive in practical terms.

Blueingreen

You have to get some perspective.  I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available.  You tuned by ear because there was no alternative.  Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music.   A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately.  Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands.  And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time.  Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar? 

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune". 

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings.  But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear.  Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

BillDL

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance.  I rarely like the sound of most of my guitars when tuned to bang on pitch with an electronic tuner and left like that.  Every guitar has its idiosyncrasies and every player frets notes and chords with varying degrees of pressure with the different fingers.

merlin

Tuning is a Bourgoise concept. 

Keefy

Blueingreen said:

You have to get some perspective.  I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available.  You tuned by ear because there was no alternative.  Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music.   A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately.  Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands.  And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time.  Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar? 

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune". 

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings.  But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear.  Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

The Rolling Stones at Hyde Park is so out-of-tune it's unlistenable. I'm sure all the Stones could tune their instruments, it's just there was no way for them to do this effectively in the live environment.

Sporky

BillDL said:

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance. 

Isn't that what the Buzz Feiten system (and possibly the Earvana nut) emulates?

I think the whole thing is a false dilemma. There is huge merit in being able to tune by ear - I'd suggest it's darned near an essential skill - but a tuner pedal is absolutely essential if you're gigging or recording. 

Danny1969

When I started out we had no tuners, we either used the pianos at school or tuned to what we thought was right. The schools synth was analog and had a tuning knob so could be tuned to the guitars.

You have to have a tuner because you need to know you are in tune without making a noise. But you also need to know the guitar needs to be "in tune" with it's self and just tuning open strings to a tuner won't achieve that. You sweeten the tuning depending on where you are going to be playing, sometimes you want a slightly flat B string to get a nice maj 3rd. Sometimes you want the bottom E flat at rest because it will go sharp when hit aggressively. 

RocknRollDave

https://youtu.be/W7NOoNyqirc

Crazed_Fandango

stickyfiddle said:

To those saying it's unimportant, is it that you can't be bothered, or can't hear when a guitar is in or out of tune, or something else? (genuine question)

@stickyfiddle ;;
 I've never learned, as I've owned a tuner at the same time as I had my 1st guitar.
"Can't be bothered",  I know I haven't bothered to a great extent, but I'm self-taught, so I only learned things at my own speed and when I needed to.  I can hear when something is off, but to the degree that non-guitarist/musician would.

I see people playing guitar, they strum a chord, then grab one of the tuners and tweak it a bit then carry on playing; this I cannot do.  I would have to stop and check each string against the next to find out which one(s) were out of tune.

Of course, for my early years, I only owned guitars with floating bridges, so a tuner was essential for me to ensure I was tuned to the correct pitch, rather than in (roughly) tune with itself.


  

bermudianbrit

Hi @BillDL thanks for the comment. The Roadie 3 tuner does this to an extent, in that it will take care of the tuning process. But it does not connect to the guitar directly, and (from experience) if trying to tune in a space with a lot of other sound vibrations, it works less well than desired because of this.
A vibrating tuner that connected to the guitar would be quite a useful bit of kit if it were reliable.

RocknRollDave

Keefy said:

Blueingreen said:

You have to get some perspective.  I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available.  You tuned by ear because there was no alternative.  Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music.   A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately.  Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands.  And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time.  Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar? 

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune". 

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings.  But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear.  Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

The Rolling Stones at Hyde Park is so out-of-tune it's unlistenable. I'm sure all the Stones could tune their instruments, it's just there was no way for them to do this effectively in the live environment.

That’s down to poor technique eg poor intonation when bending, lack of decent finger vibrato so notes sound ‘wrong’ when they’re just lifeless etc

Stuckfast

I've nothing against digital tuners, but I have often seen performers who don't seem aware that their instrument is still noticeably out of tune even though they've made all the little green LEDs light up. I think it's vital to check by ear even if you do use a tuner.