Adults afraid of their children?

VimFuego

jd0272 said:

Emp_Fab;365781" said:

I can't stand the little shits. The Victorians had the right idea, thrash them daily and send them up the chimneys.

Hmm, now there's a thing, I've three kids and two chimneys.......

you just know that's a recipe for an argument, don't you. "it's not fair, he spent longer up the chimney than me, she's got more soot in her lungs than me". You're best off buying them each a chimney or getting them all pulled down.

Phil_aka_Pip

jd0272 said:

Emp_Fab;365781" said:

I can't stand the little shits. The Victorians had the right idea, thrash them daily and send them up the chimneys.

Hmm, now there's a thing, I've three kids and two chimneys.......

best dig a coal mine for the third then

jd0272

Phil_aka_Pip;365835" said:

jd0272 said:

Emp_Fab;365781" said:I can't stand the little shits. The Victorians had the right idea, thrash them daily and send them up the chimneys.





Hmm, now there's a thing, I've three kids and two chimneys.......





best dig a coal mine for the third then

Loads of old ones around here! Just need a bigger house with three chimneys.

And a cellar......

Rocker

Interesting post @Frankus, when I get home (might be tomorrow), I will outline the situations that triggered my original post. I agree with some of what you wrote by the way.

frankus

Rocker said:

Interesting post @Frankus, when I get home (might be tomorrow), I will outline the situations that triggered my original post. I agree with some of what you wrote by the way.

now you're just being reasonable.

fretmeister

"Children are animals and need to be trained that way" - Rocker, err I mean Mario Puzo.

Sambostar

frankus said:

The adult afraid of children is you, adults unafraid of children are comfortable to accept they're boisterous and not schooled entirely in etiquette and that cramming too much of that shit in too soon makes for a stunted mind. Children have an honesty and innocence that if kept will make them a useful part of the human race... without it they become mixed up, angry about the wrong things, joyless traitors to humanity, traitors to themselves, a liability ... much like a zombie in an apocalyptic era - their discontent spreads like a disease, stifling clearer minds ... best avoided.

Fair enough, so long as they aren't running around tripping over old ladies, spitting at people and telling old men to fuck off and pushing them into the path of oncoming HGV's, whilst they ride their bikes on the pavement.  I think personally we should bring back the days when you could discipline other people's children.  The lovey, lovey, softly, softly approach as the UK has adopted it, has failed.  When kids drop concrete blocks off the motorway bridge, we should be able to take them down the morgue to see their victims and meet the families, as used to be the case, not let them off without ever understanding the consequences of their actions.  In the UK it is all lovey, lovey or softly softly, without ever instilling in them their responsibilities and the consequences of their actions.

Fretwired

Emp_Fab said:

I can't stand the little shits. The Victorians had the right idea, thrash them daily and send them up the chimneys.

Predictable rant from grumpy of Wales. You should be deleted to protect the gene pool ... :-)

frankus

Sambostar said:

Fair enough, so long as they aren't running around tripping over old ladies, spitting at people and telling old men to fuck off and pushing them into the path of oncoming HGV's, whilst they ride their bikes on the pavement.  I think personally we should bring back the days when you could discipline other people's children.  The lovey, lovey, softly, softly approach as the UK has adopted it, has failed.  When kids drop concrete blocks off the motorway bridge, we should be able to take them down the morgue to see their victims and meet the families, as used to be the case, not let them off without ever understanding the consequences of their actions.  In the UK it is all lovey, lovey or softly softly, without ever instilling in them their responsibilities and the consequences of their actions.

What you're describing are kids who's parents are indifferent to them. In toddlers and teenagers there's a hard wired to find boundaries. At some point kids want to know what the rules are and if at that time the parents have given up on them you get a child who feels abandoned and has no sense of boundaries so keeps pushing.

The softly softly approach doesn't work on those kids as they don't recognise it as authority, but it can help them to be less angry. At that point something like the army works because they get recognised for being good at stuff (so feel accepted) and have utterly clear and strongly enforced rules...

Fretwired

Cat v baby [especially for the Emperor] .. ;-)

Axe_meister

What a stupid parent. As much as I like cats and dogs. You never not intervene in a situation like that.

It's cruel to both the cat (who just wanted to play but then had to defend itself) and the child. A cats claw could easily 

rip through an eyeball

Fretwired

Axe_meister said:

What a stupid parent. As much as I like cats and dogs. You never not intervene in a situation like that.

It's cruel to both the cat (who just wanted to play but then had to defend itself) and the child. A cats claw could easily 

rip through an eyeball

The stupidity of parents knows no bounds ... I pity the local cat community when that kid grows up.

capo4th

I can imagine the parents who made that video.......

Sambostar

I would wager that the parents who made that video had good jobs, good incomes and were probably typical middle class, self obsessed, wag wannabe parents who valued their facebook time more than their child's.

VimFuego

what car do they drive and where do they go on holiday?

Iamnobody

frankus;365670" said:

Rocker said:

Possible a contentious post, not meant to be, but



Do you EVER wonder why so many of your posts start that way?

 it seems that a lot of parents are afraid of their children. 



why does it seem that way to you? how long and how deep have you observed before dismissing two generations?





This is shown by the way some parents allow their children to dominate the room/shop/space.



Ah - I've got you - you're scared of kids being able to express themselves... you keep thinking when's their Dad going to beat them into silence for having the audacity to be a kid.





  It would appear that children are being brought up to believe that they are the centre of the universe and that everyone else is there to admire and respond to their demands.



feeling left out? you're not a kid any more.



kids need reasuring that they fit in, they are the centre of a parent's universe and they are our future and legacy - trample on them at your peril.





 In *our* day children were "seen but not heard".



and sexually abused a fair bit too, but it's okay they're only kids they should be obscene and not heard, eh?





 I am not suggesting that was the correct way but it is likely that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.



for you, good news is the pendulum will keep swinging the way it's going because declines in austerity, war and improved  healthcare means that parents can have fewer children and invest more time in them to ensure they're whole people when they become adults rather than bitter resentful self-righteous judgemental fuckers with no memory of what it was to be a kid.



and as with all evolution, the unevolved can stick around in their cave and die of old age alone.







Anyone care to comment? 





Okay, I;ll give it a go:



The adult afraid of children is you, adults unafraid

of children are comfortable to accept they're boisterous and not

schooled entirely in etiquette and that cramming too much of that shit

in too soon makes for a stunted mind. Children have an honesty and innocence that if kept will make them a useful part of the human race... without it they become mixed up, angry about the wrong things, joyless traitors to humanity, traitors to themselves, a liability ... much like a zombie in an apocalyptic era - their discontent spreads like a disease, stifling clearer minds ... best avoided.

That's just two opinions at the opposite extremes.

There's no rules to parenting - I find the key is to learn by your mistakes.

There's a middle ground that I fear is gradually being eroded away by the lefty do-gooders at one end and the scumbags that should be sterilised at the other - advancing on us in the middle!

We will be left with two types of person - both massive cunts for different reasons.

frankus

Iamnobody said:

That's just two opinions at the opposite extremes.

no, one is a counterpoint to the other - it's facile to attribute "extreme" to either they're simply different - the fact that they differ doesn't automatically make them extremes. There are more extreme views of either.

There's no rules to parenting - I find the key is to learn by your mistakes.

There are principles of parenting - The Rules of Parenting is a very good book, the key isn't to learn BY your mistakes it's to learn FROM your mistakes.

There are books, role models (family, friends , etc), there are good practices and advice (if you've theright sort of parents they'll admit the mistakes they made). In trying to apply all that - that is where mistakes are made and insights gained.

There's a middle ground that I fear is gradually being eroded away by the lefty do-gooders at one end and the scumbags that should be sterilised at the other - advancing on us in the middle!

You've simply asigned the labels extremes and mis-labeled both Rocker and me - thaaaaanks it's a bit dismissive don't you think?

You can't really blame anyone else for the sense of alarm you feel being encroached by figments of your own bigotry.

We will be left with two types of person - both massive cunts for different reasons.

Okay - here's a chance to learn from your mistakes.

Currently there are three types of cunts - Mr Middle Ground is a cunt too, he dictates "extremes" where participants see difference. He spectates rather than acquire an opinion and then showboats his "equanimity" as a means of self-aggrandizement and squashing a conversation he doesn't want to exist.

I have respect for Rocker, he's got a strong opinion and he seems open to changing it whereas you're being passive aggressive and who's interested in defending that?

Rocker

I promised @Frankus that I would explain my grounds for my original post.

* I was in Dublin on business last Tuesday.  After walking around the city for a few hours, I was tired and weary and went into a cafe for a restorative coffee.  Coffee ordered when suddenly a child screamed.  The place was full or almost full, some customers looked while the majority did not.  A minute or two later he screamed again.  This went on for about five minutes when the (male) adult and the young male child walked out holding hands, the child did not look distressed.  When the pair had left the cafe, the sense of relief that most of the other customers felt was almost beyond description.  Within a few minutes the place was buzzing as people started talking whereas before there was an air of forced silence.

* On Friday last an almost identical happening in our local supermarket.  Again the child was a young boy, the lady with him seemed unaffected by his near continuous screams.  He was being wheeled around standing in the shopping trolley.  No matter what direction I moved in the supermarket, I could still easily hear the screams.  He did not look distressed either.

* The third incident is most alarming.  My wife met our neighbour while on the road.  The usual stopping and talking through open windows.  You get the picture.  The neighbours child unbuckled his seat belt, got out of the childs seat in the back of the car, climbed into the front of the car and wound up the window.  Thus ending the conversation.  And his mother did noting about this.

My conclusions, which might be wrong BTW, are that parents are afraid to correct or reprimand their child when he/she is bold/cheeky/screamy.  It has been pointed out that in the past children suffered at the hands of adults.  This is absolutely true.  But there is a balance between abuse of a child and correcting that child.  Did you ever watch a mother hen with her chicks or a cat with her kittens?  In both these examples, the parent allows a certain freedom but steps in if that boundary is crossed over or they sense danger.  It is no different with children IMHO.  If a child does not learn to respect an adult or old person, he or she is unlikely to learn this when they become adolescent or older.  Who wants to live in that kind of environment.  Note I said respect, not blind obedience or acceptance of their wills or ideas.

Nobody wants their child to grow up fearing the world at large.  Parenting is the skill of gradually releasing their child into the world. 

Iamnobody

Oh dear I'm sure you are a good egg really but I don't know where to start replying. Let me try...

Firstly you are jumping to defensive conclusions @frankus.

Secondly did you not see the wink smiley and my use of the 'c' word which harks back to a previous thread?

Do you really think I believe people should be sterilised? Ok maybe one or two!

What else...

I must apologise that my command of the English language falls short of you own - clearly I meant learn from mistakes. Although I think my version may be an accepted turn of phrase as well? I'm certain it's one that is commonly used in the north.

Perhaps my use of the word extreme was inappropriate - let's agree on significantly different opinions - at opposite ends of the spectrum maybe?

In addition I haven't labelled you or the OP (although I do note your use of the wink smiley). But you Sir have indirectly labelled me a bigot and someone who is passively aggressive - well done.

You've also alluded that you don't respect me - that's fine as I'm not seeking your approval or your respect.

I'm humbled that YOU are offering me the chance to learn from my mistake. Obviously your own self-aggrandizement allows you to offer me that opportunity?

As they say opinions are like arse-holes...or should that be from arse-holes!


<:-P

frankus

Rocker said:

I promised @Frankus that I would explain my grounds for my original post.

* I was in Dublin on business last Tuesday.  After walking around the city for a few hours, I was tired and weary and went into a cafe for a restorative coffee.  Coffee ordered when suddenly a child screamed.  The place was full or almost full, some customers looked while the majority did not.  A minute or two later he screamed again.  This went on for about five minutes when the (male) adult and the young male child walked out holding hands, the child did not look distressed.  When the pair had left the cafe, the sense of relief that most of the other customers felt was almost beyond description.  Within a few minutes the place was buzzing as people started talking whereas before there was an air of forced silence.

I think part of that's a demographic of coffee shops.

Some of it might be concern - at any time was the adult identified as Dad? Kids should be taught to shout "you're not my dad!!" any time someone who isn't their dad grabs them or tries to take them somewhere ... without that there's always unease.

Kids will act out, shy parents give in to this... the kid might have been bored of the coffee shop and blackmailing Dad - should he get away with it?

If Dad clouted him and got on with drinking his coffee - the disquiet would have been greater...

I don't think uneasiness is an indicator of anything - I mean some people might feel uneasy if a gay person or a black person came into their coffee shop and if enough people thought the same there'd be a sigh of relief when the stimulus for their distress left...

* On Friday last an almost identical happening in our local supermarket.  Again the child was a young boy, the lady with him seemed unaffected by his near continuous screams.  He was being wheeled around standing in the shopping trolley.  No matter what direction I moved in the supermarket, I could still easily hear the screams.  He did not look distressed either.

I can assure you that the lady with him was probably more affected by his near continuous screams than you were. Play white noise to parents and they frequently hear their child crying in the wall of sound.. it's because their hearing hones in on certain frequencies and makes it louder. Parents with a new born always believe it's noisier than it is.

But what would you have a full-time mum do? It's a dispute like any other but one of the participants doesn't have social conditioning. In those situations it's important for Mum to remain an adult and not capitulate but equally listen to the kids grievances (which if he's screaming he's found that more effective than talking - for one reason or another).

What would you have her do?

* The third incident is most alarming.  My wife met our neighbour while on the road.  The usual stopping and talking through open windows.  You get the picture.  The neighbours child unbuckled his seat belt, got out of the childs seat in the back of the car, climbed into the front of the car and wound up the window.  Thus ending the conversation.  And his mother did noting about this.

I remember, years ago, bellowing at one of my son's friends for unbuckling his seatbelt as we were driving and then jumping on my son's car seat and trying to unbuckle his - added to which my wife was no help at all and wouldn't pull over - to be honest my anger was with her... but none the less we returned a sobbing child to his parents and I felt like shit.

I think in that situation the kid being a little sod probably suited the woman who didn't know how to politely end the conversation. Or it could be the Mum is (let's call it) depressed (but more accurately "Poor little old me" attitude) and feels a victim to her kids... stick someone in with a kid for a few years they'll start to lose bits of their personality and will power.. it happens so easily.

My conclusions, which might be wrong BTW, are that parents are afraid to correct or reprimand their child when he/she is bold/cheeky/screamy.  It has been pointed out that in the past children suffered at the hands of adults.  This is absolutely true.  But there is a balance between abuse of a child and correcting that child.  Did you ever watch a mother hen with her chicks or a cat with her kittens?  In both these examples, the parent allows a certain freedom but steps in if that boundary is crossed over or they sense danger.  It is no different with children IMHO.  If a child does not learn to respect an adult or old person, he or she is unlikely to learn this when they become adolescent or older.  Who wants to live in that kind of environment.  Note I said respect, not blind obedience or acceptance of their wills or ideas.

I agree with that sentiment, but the parent isn't afraid of the child, the parent doesn't know how to react to the child's behaviour and is afraid of being judged by society. Giving a kid a back-hander is the easiest thing in the world - I got a few simply because I was misheard, and kicked once for getting the wrong brand of coke - but I'm not a victim, I do know I shut up then, but I lost respect for a parent and that's a hard thing to come to terms with.

As with most rules in life people say "don't hit your kids" - which is shit ... what do you do instead? What can you tell people to do that doesn't involve a negative at the front? You know constructive advice?

Well, teaching people to breath properly so they don't lose their rag, eye contact with kids, showing the emotions you're feeling without being intimidating, listening to the kid before they decide the only way to get attention is to act out.

It sounds trite but that Super Nanny TV programme is a really good set of principles to raise kids by, and she's a good role model in how to talk to kids..

Parents do get it wrong and people who aren't parents are quick to pile on the blame, recently I was on a camping holiday and brushing my youngest kids teeth, and he's grumbling as usual, I try to do it firmly but not too much.. but a guy of around 60 says "don't brtush his teeth too hard, you'll hurt him" ... at that point I have all these thoughts nearly at the same time:

am I brushing too hard?
are you interpreting I'm brushing too hard?
do I underestimate my son's complaining? (I've a video of his 4 year old tirade about how minecraft wasn't working).
are you a dentist?

of course it's awkward calling out parenting skills or lack of so he was out the door before I'd thought of what I was going to ask him.

Nobody wants their child to grow up fearing the world at large.  Parenting is the skill of gradually releasing their child into the world. 

Thing is, noone knows how to avoid it. Parenting should be like mother bear -  after a year of lavish attention, she chases her cubs up a tree and leaves, and she doesn't f*** about, they'd better get up the tree. Parenting is about letting go when they're adults because you know you've done the job.(I've yet to face that challenge).