Unlocking your amps best tones

capo4th

Put your amp on a stand or sideboard and you will discover new improved tones....

Clarky

with some amps, pre-EQ is a big deal..

some amps like Boogies get boomy / flabby lows when you dial in more gain..

the old trick in the 80's was to use a Tube Screamer with the drive set to 0..

what the TS is actually doing [by virtue of it being a bit crap - but in a cool way] is cutting the level of the extreme lows and extreme highs coming from the guitar before it goes into the amp..

the end result is that you can dial in more gain but keep the low end tight and have fizz free highs…

You don't actually need a TS to do this though.. a parametric EQ / graphic EQ stomp can achieve the same results..

ICBM

RandomGecko said:

The Mark IV is a strange beast. I owned one for a few years - it's a great amp but it does require a different approach to most. 

You have to keep the bass low on the EQ knob - maybe as low as 2, but you can boost it on the sliders. The Mid knob is a funny one, it's not incredibly powerful so you might as well leave it around 5 and affect the midrange with the 750 slider. Treble control affects the amount of gain, so the higher it is, the more gain, which you can then attenuate with lead gain and lead drive. Kinda weird, but once you get it, it sort of makes sense. Enough to make it sound good anyway.

What's important is that the rotary EQ is pre-distortion as clarky said, but the Graphic is post-distortion. This is really important, but a lot of people don't realise why (or even that) they're like this - the two EQs don't do the same thing at all.

The rotary EQ pushes different frequencies into distortion, which is why they seem to affect the gain and why too much bass makes it go flabby and overblown. The Graphic shapes the distortion afterwards, so (unless you overdo it and overdrive the power stage) it doesn't change the amount of distortion. So the best way to create distortion that's both tight and responsive, but also big-sounding and present, is to boost the mids and cut the treble and bass (one of the few amps I would) on the rotary, and the opposite (the classic 'V shape') with the Graphic.

Where I find it falls down with the MkIV - and worse with the MkIII - is that the two rhythm modes share the bass and mid controls. You want high bass and low mid for a classic Fender-type clean, and the opposite for a classic Marshall-type crunch, so you can't get both right at the same time. In my opinion you can't actually get a good Marshall-type sound out of it at all, because the rotary EQ is still in the wrong place - it should also be after the distortion.

This is the main reason the Rectifier series is so different from the Mark series - they have the Marshall-style EQ after the distortion. (Although the Single Rectifier and the three-channel Dual/Triple now have a separate clean channel with early EQ.)

No idea if that's helpful to anyone except geeks like me who know it anyway . And I still find it hard to get a sound I like out of the Marks, because I just don't like pre-distortion EQ very much - I find it too touchy and hard to get a sound that isn't too smooth, you can't quite get that big open roar I prefer.

longi

I

Cabicular

Agh that makes more sense now with the eq
Thanks

p90fool

ThePrettyDamned;392390" said:

[quote="p90fool;392314"]I have a Princeton, so I generally have bass set somewhere between 0 and 10, and the treble somewhere between 0 and 10.

Where exactly doesn't seem to matter that much.

Damn good sounding amp though, right? [/quote]

Certainly is, I spend far more time playing than tweaking these days.

Hertz32

I just spent 3 hours fiddling with my amp becasue of this thread, and all this "Raise it up for more tone" stuff is bollocks.
Spent the whole time with my Dark terror head at the top of a ladder and didn't notice a difference. 

Catthan

I don't remember how the MkIV's controls are layed out but I think they should be similar to the V and most Mesa/Boogies. The confusing bit to me was having treble and presence in the rotary EQ. 

So far I found that boogie dirt is heavy in the low-mids. The mid slider is therefore "honk" to me and I dial it down (The V GEQ thing). Rotary treble is high Mids sizzle, what cuts through. Rotary bass is "flub" and rotary mids is how stiff the amp feels to the hands and how defined the attack is. Presence is "treble" and the 6.6K slider is treble again but more hi-fi. That's how I understand it at least and so far it helps in knowing how to shape my tone. 

The only bit that sometimes gives me trouble is balancing rotary presence with the 6.6K slider. What I generally do is keep presence down for fat leads and open up the amp a bit form the 6.6K slider so generally I set a mild V on the GEQ. I also use the extreme mode in ch3 where the amp is more open and that saves me some trouble with the presence dial.

If I lower the gain and treble from the pre- i can boost the mids from the GEQ setting it as a reverse V sorta.. It's like how my old Badger worked when I hit the mid boost from the Suhr Koko.

That way I can dial out the inherent honk from the pre- and use it to my advantage as I boost some in from the GEQ where I can shape it how I want. 

I've noticed that guys who like the Mark rhythm tone crank the presence and dial a V on the GEQ but I hate that sound, conveniently.. 

Re unlocking the secrets, I ve found it's smth I struggle with at lower volumes. For reasons I don't understand technically, my amps come together if they are dialed a bit louder. Then getting a good tone that works is easier. And it's gigs where "louder" happens and many small nuances get buried anyway Imho.

Cabicular

Lol

Fiddling with a Dark Terror ... I love them. 1 tone control. If you can't find what you like its not there

ICBM

Cabicular said:

1 tone control. If you can't find what you like its not there

That's a big problem with most amps like that.

RaymondLin

capo4th;392473" said:

Put your amp on a stand or sideboard and you will discover new improved tones....

Not sure why this isn't widely practiced. It is well known and a must in HiFi that you put your speakers on stands or spikes. Otherwise you lose a lot of energy (sound, or tones or whatever you want to call it) through vibrations to the floor.

It's simple physics.

jellyroll

RaymondLin said:

capo4th;392473" said:

Put your amp on a stand or sideboard and you will discover new improved tones....

Not sure why this isn't widely practiced. It is well known and a must in HiFi that you put your speakers on stands or spikes. Otherwise you lose a lot of energy (sound, or tones or whatever you want to call it) through vibrations to the floor.

It's simple physics.

Not so sure this principle has universal applicability to guitar amps. I'm only a home player but my amp sounds sh*t off the floor (directional, boxy, less bass)...and it ain't a cheap amp. 

stickyfiddle

I have to say I found my Express 5:25 a bit hard to dial in. When it was good it was glorious, but it wasn't always trivial.

I spent a lot of time trying to dial out the "thump" that is typical of Mesas when playing at home, but that may be something better achieved by just buying a different amp (which is what I did!)

ICBM

RaymondLin said:

capo4th;392473" said:

Put your amp on a stand or sideboard and you will discover new improved tones....

Not sure why this isn't widely practiced. It is well known and a must in HiFi that you put your speakers on stands or spikes. Otherwise you lose a lot of energy (sound, or tones or whatever you want to call it) through vibrations to the floor.

It's simple physics.

That isn't the reason for raising hi-fi cabs up, it's to remove the problem of boundary effects which cause unevenness in the bass response. Spikes are purposely to go through the carpet and connect the stand directly to the floor.

Anyway, hi-fi and guitar amps are such different things with such different goals that a good rule of thumb is that if something is better for hi-fi, it's worse for guitar and vice versa.

Raising a guitar amp up can be a good thing in a stage mix because it rolls off the bottom end and stops it interfering with the bass amp, so it's easier to get a natural 'fit' between the two - as well as letting you hear it better and making it sound more like it does out in the room - but at home or if you're recording it's usually better to put it on the floor so you get the full low-end… you can always take it off again if you need to in a recording.

RaymondLin

Physics knows not what music it comes through...or does it?

Unless the sound you are after is as a result of putting the speaker on the floor.

Clarky

RaymondLin said:

capo4th;392473" said:

Put your amp on a stand or sideboard and you will discover new improved tones....

Not sure why this isn't widely practiced. It is well known and a must in HiFi that you put your speakers on stands or spikes. Otherwise you lose a lot of energy (sound, or tones or whatever you want to call it) through vibrations to the floor.

It's simple physics.

I'm not sure that's right..

your speakers are supposed to be placed so that the tweeters are at ear level, because the higher the frequency, the more directional it is..

bass waves spread out like dropping a rock in a pond, whereas treble is like a jet from the nozzle of a hose..

place your speakers on the floor and two effects take place..

one is that you can't hear the treble so well cos your ears are above it.. which makes the music lose definition..

the other is the proximity effect with the floor / walls.. that will boost the bass and make the loss of definition even worse..

speakers on the floor don't lose energy, the bass loses it's focus and gets boosted..

if you want to hear the speakers without them being influenced by anything else, they are best off the floor, away from walls [especially corners], isolated from the surface they stand on and the tweeters are at ear level..

that said.. I'm happy to have my 4x12 cabs on the floor.. lol.. seriously though, I just dial my tones into the cabs as they are..

mattacjones

Saw this some time back - thought it was quite useful
http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/50-steps-to-better-electric-guitar-tone-528489/45

EdGrip

p90fool said:

I have a Princeton, so I generally have bass set somewhere between 0 and 10, and the treble somewhere between 0 and 10.

Where exactly doesn't seem to matter that much.

Princeton high-five! These are my favourite settings also.

The best guitar tone I've ever heard was some sorta old-y slow rockabilly jazzy band that I saw in Norwich. They had a double bass. I think the guitar player was playing something hollow, and he was playing it through a small Fender amp which was on a chair. That's what made me want a Princeton, as it was too small to have been anything else - I wish I'd payed more attention at the time. I suppose it could have been a Blues Jr. Whatevs, it was ace. 

When I was about 15 I went to an Eddie Allen guitar workshop. He too described the "each EQ knob has a sweet spot, sweep from 0-10 whilst supplying the amp with the relevant frequencies from your guitar to find it" method, and I've often used it as a basis for getting an amp set up. When I try this method on the Princeton Reverb it just looks at me with birdbrained bewilderment, sometimes with another expression that seems to say "More reverb? Is that what you're trying to do? That's not the reverb knob." 

"No Princeton, not reverb. Bass. More bass."

"...reverb?"

"No - bass."

"Reverb?"

"Bass!"

"Reverb?"

"BASS!"

"Reverb?"

".....yes, more reverb."

nickb_boy

I found the best option of wasting time trying to dial in a decent tone was to go out and get myself this amp!

There's no need to wonder what each dial and switch does and how they interact with each other.  Not a bad sound to be had.  Just a volume and tone!!

EdGrip