A person kills your child..,

theatreanchor

This wins most the distasteful thread award. 

fretmeister

theatreanchor said:

This wins most the distasteful thread award. 

Yes.

But at the same time it carries with it a chance for education. There are several people on the forum who work in the justice system so there is an opportunity to correct misunderstandings about how things actually work as opposed to how they are supposed to work. Trying to over come the influence or "education" of press rantings by editors determined to whip up their readers into a frenzy based on demonstrable falsehoods.

I have up moral objections to the death penalty years ago. I don't need them. I don't even need the hundreds of studies confirming it is not a deterrent.

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

fretmeister

My final comment so Pete can get on with writing his assignment.

Everyone (especially politicians and journalists) should read "Fake Law" and "Stories of the Law and how it is broken" by the Secret Barrister.

The miscarriages, the underfunding, the outright lies told about the system are examined in the books.

Both books will enrage even the person who thinks the Daily Mail reports on justice matters accurately.

Reverend

Of course there should be the death penalty. Our legal system is flawless, and perhaps we can get Fujitsu to sort out the admin. 

Petepassion

Thanks Fretmeister, reckon I’ll get an A+ for that little lot .
   Seriously though, yes it’s distasteful, but a worthwhile subject to talk about regarding such things as blame, guilt emotionally charged judgements and views.
   I often get out of my depth with such topics, but learn so much.

Hurling_Fruitmig

Whether we like the outcome or not is irrelevant; we have a justice system, not a revenge system so the outcome is constrained by what society as a whole will tolerate.

fretmeister

Reverend said:

Of course there should be the death penalty. Our legal system is flawless, and perhaps we can get Fujitsu to sort out the admin. 

Reverend

fretmeister said:

Reverend said:

Of course there should be the death penalty. Our legal system is flawless, and perhaps we can get Fujitsu to sort out the admin. 

not sure if I should lol or wis

Kurtis

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

munckee

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

I think if the person is without doubt a serial killer or too dangerous to ever let out they should be terminated to get them out of the gene pool asap and not have to spend a fortune keeping them alive which could pay for care for someone who isn’t a serial killer. 

That’s my view anyway. 

Offset

I think the two creatures who murdered Lee Rigby are perfect examples of individuals who do not deserve to draw breath.  It sticks in my craw to think that my taxes are being used to feed the bastards.

I still couldn't condone the death penalty however, no matter how strongly I feel.  All you can hope for is that they both succumb to extremely unpleasant illnesses and die after a lengthy period of suffering so the cost of incarcerating them can go to worthy causes.

fretmeister

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

How many times do I have to say this.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.

The entire system is based on doubt!

____________

And if a person admits it - they get credit and a lesser sentence.

Kurtis

fretmeister said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

How many times do I have to say this.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.

The entire system is based on doubt!

____________

And if a person admits it - they get credit and a lesser sentence.

Of course there is.
Technically it could be a situation where it could have only been one person. Especially when it's a serial killer. 

fretmeister

munckee said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

I think if the person is without doubt a serial killer or too dangerous to ever let out they should be terminated to get them out of the gene pool asap and not have to spend a fortune keeping them alive which could pay for care for someone who isn’t a serial killer. 

That’s my view anyway. 

That view would be changed by reading any of the books on the subject. Both in terms of "without a doubt" as there is no such thing, and about saving money.

I'm not picking on you, but this post is why Basic Law and Civics should be taught at school, and be compulsory.

fretmeister

Reverend said:

fretmeister said:

Reverend said:

Of course there should be the death penalty. Our legal system is flawless, and perhaps we can get Fujitsu to sort out the admin. 

not sure if I should lol or wis

The next one is likely to be the "Single Justice Procedure" and the amount of wrongful convictions it leads to - particularly for those with any form of cognitive / learning impairment. 

It's already caused the actual imprisonment of people with Downs Syndrome for not having TV licences in circumstances where there should not have been been a fine.

I give it 5 years before the press takes notice. It's not a sexy a story as a group of generally respected people like Post Masters, and there's no union to make noise about it.

Petepassion

Offset said:

I think the two creatures who murdered Lee Rigby are perfect examples of individuals who do not deserve to draw breath.  It sticks in my craw to think that my taxes are being used to feed the bastards.

I still couldn't condone the death penalty however, no matter how strongly I feel.  All you can hope for is that they both succumb to extremely unpleasant illnesses and die after a lengthy period of suffering so the cost of incarcerating them can go to worthy causes.

Do you remember what the killer said to the camera after killing Lee Rigby?
And no, it is not justification by any means.

munckee

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

I think if the person is without doubt a serial killer or too dangerous to ever let out they should be terminated to get them out of the gene pool asap and not have to spend a fortune keeping them alive which could pay for care for someone who isn’t a serial killer. 

That’s my view anyway. 

That view would be changed by reading any of the books on the subject. Both in terms of "without a doubt" as there is no such thing, and about saving money.

I'm not picking on you, but this post is why Basic Law and Civics should be taught at school, and be compulsory.

I’ve read stuff about it and to be fair you don’t know I would change my mind. People are caught in the act like the chap wrestled to the floor on the bridge who had stabbed people in the seminar, there is no doubt there he was seen committing the act it by loads of people and caught there and then.  

fretmeister

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

How many times do I have to say this.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.

The entire system is based on doubt!

____________

And if a person admits it - they get credit and a lesser sentence.

Technically it could be a situation where it could have only been one person. Especially when it's a serial killer. 

To be even close to being irrefutable there would have to be zero errors of any kind in the entire process. Right from the very first report of a crime to the end of the trial.

Such a thing involves dozens of different human beings over several years. Different interpretations of regulations. Different ways of writing notes from an interview. Even something as simple as different personal hygiene standards that might affect DNA collection. Or someone having a bit of an off day. Or the maker of the SOCO gloves providing a bad batch. The Fridge at the DNA store being .5C off. And all this is without considering a juror who just doesn't like the look of the accused.

Evidence in itself is nothing. It is the interpretation of that evidence that is the important thing. Evidence is handled and interpreted by humans and humans make mistakes every single day.

For evidence to be irrefutable, humans first need to be infallible.

Kurtis

fretmeister said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

Kurtis said:

fretmeister said:

The existence of unavoidable human error in the system is enough for even the most cold blooded logical Vulcan to see it's a crap idea.

What about when the evidence is irrefutable? The perpetrator has admitted it and shows no remorse?

How many times do I have to say this.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.

The entire system is based on doubt!

____________

And if a person admits it - they get credit and a lesser sentence.

Technically it could be a situation where it could have only been one person. Especially when it's a serial killer. 

To be even close to being irrefutable there would have to be zero errors of any kind in the entire process. Right from the very first report of a crime to the end of the trial.

Such a thing involves dozens of different human beings over several years. Different interpretations of regulations. Different ways of writing notes from an interview. Even something as simple as different personal hygiene standards that might affect DNA collection. Or someone having a bit of an off day. Or the maker of the SOCO gloves providing a bad batch. The Fridge at the DNA store being .5C off. And all this is without considering a juror who just doesn't like the look of the accused.

Evidence in itself is nothing. It is the interpretation of that evidence that is the important thing. Evidence is handled and interpreted by humans and humans make mistakes every single day.

For evidence to be irrefutable, humans first need to be infallible.

So Richard ramirez was maybe innocent?!

How do you get a "lesser" death sentence? 

Offset

Petepassion said:

Offset said:

I think the two creatures who murdered Lee Rigby are perfect examples of individuals who do not deserve to draw breath.  It sticks in my craw to think that my taxes are being used to feed the bastards.

I still couldn't condone the death penalty however, no matter how strongly I feel.  All you can hope for is that they both succumb to extremely unpleasant illnesses and die after a lengthy period of suffering so the cost of incarcerating them can go to worthy causes.

Do you remember what the killer said to the camera after killing Lee Rigby?
And no, it is not justification by any means.

I don't, but if I had to hazard a guess it would have something to do with martyrdom...