Guitar Weight and tone,,plus of course Compromise / usability..Not Tonewood..

KevS · April 2

Sporky said:

sev112 said:

some say we don’t know enough science yet or it’s been proven wrong.

We do. All of this is well understood, and those who say it isn't are either ignorant or trolling.

I must be ignorant then..Congratulations on insulting people because I certainly wasn't trolling..

So we must all be ignorant...

fretmeister · April 2

KevS said:

Sporky said:

sev112 said:

some say we don’t know enough science yet or it’s been proven wrong.

We do. All of this is well understood, and those who say it isn't are either ignorant or trolling.

I must be ignorant then..Congratulations on insulting people because I certainly wasn't trolling..

So we must all be ignorant...

Ignorant is not an insult in this context. It just means not knowing.

KevS · April 2

fretmeister said:

KevS said:

Sporky said:

sev112 said:

some say we don’t know enough science yet or it’s been proven wrong.

We do. All of this is well understood, and those who say it isn't are either ignorant or trolling.

I must be ignorant then..Congratulations on insulting people because I certainly wasn't trolling..

So we must all be ignorant...

Ignorant is not an insult in this context. It just means not knowing.

Not how I would judge it by looking at previous posts from the same person..
Calling someone Ignorant in any situation is provocative..
To claim it is not is blatantly disingenuous..

Sure you could quote a dictionary,,it depends how a word is used and the posts around it and previous posts..
Someone else commented about people belittling others too..

As for someone who is trolling accusing other people of trolling,come on...

The only answers I make on here are to try and help people..
Not trying to belittle people...Not bullying or trying to make people unwelcome..

That behaviour ruins the forum for others..

Kurtis · April 2

I really couldn't give a shit

Any differences between two guitars of the same type with similar pickups are completely irrelevant to what I want to do with them. Even an lp and a strat can sound pretty darn similar with a bit of dirt.

fretmeister · April 3

KevS said:

fretmeister said:

KevS said:

Sporky said:

sev112 said:

some say we don’t know enough science yet or it’s been proven wrong.

We do. All of this is well understood, and those who say it isn't are either ignorant or trolling.

I must be ignorant then..Congratulations on insulting people because I certainly wasn't trolling..

So we must all be ignorant...

Ignorant is not an insult in this context. It just means not knowing.

Not how I would judge it by looking at previous posts from the same person..
Calling someone Ignorant in any situation is provocative..
To claim it is not is blatantly disingenuous..

Sure you could quote a dictionary,,it depends how a word is used and the posts around it and previous posts..
Someone else commented about people belittling others too..

As for someone who is trolling accusing other people of trolling,come on...

The only answers I make on here are to try and help people..
Not trying to belittle people...Not bullying or trying to make people unwelcome..

That behaviour ruins the forum for others..

I disagree.

In the example I quoted there were two parts. Ignorant and Trolling.

The trolling part could be an insult. The other would not be in the context of the post.

Sporky · April 3

KevS said:
Not how I would judge it by looking at previous posts from the same person.

If you actually want to understand about how materials affect sound there are a bazillion resources out there. While it's a fair few years old, The Science Of Sound by Rossing et al is an excellent and very readable primer (it's only the DSP bit that's out of date, the bulk is acoustics and there's a big but on stringed instruments).

For reference - and I'm not saying it makes me an expert - I have a Masters in Electronic Engineering and Music Technology Systems, about twenty years' professional experience in audio visual design - including lots of commercial audio and acoustics, and I've built a decent handful of guitars from timber - by hand and using CNC.

In particular, I've spent a fair bit of time testing audio things - and testing customers' perception vs expectation. That includes doing blind cable testing, for example, and setting up rigged tests to demonstrate that what you hear may not be what's actually there.

So feel free to dismiss me as a lying bullying troll (as per your pages-long rant post about anyone who's ever disagreed with you with reasoning and evidence), or consider that like many others here (WezV very much springs to mind) I have at least a pinch of relevant knowledge and experience that you could learn from.

OilCityPickups · April 3

Cirrus said:

Funkfingers said:

KevS said:
<ADMIN: Deleted, for offensive insinuations>

Cirrus said:
I'm glad you replied before I did, because I'd have been much more rude.

Hello Modmins.

If you think that anything I posted earlier warrants deletion, please go ahead.

To anybody else, I recommend the book Bad Science by Ben Goldacre. ISBN-968-0-00-724019-7

Well TBH,

I think your first post was rude, people should be able to talk about their experience of musical instruments subjectively without needing to pretend they are scientists. You came into this thread trying to belittle that, and us having the discussion, with a pointless appeal to scientific reason which didn't actually help anyone reading or contribute to the discussion other than to try to shut it down.

Why did you bother? Since you didn't help anyone else, I guess it was just to make yourself feel good at the expense of others. This isn't a matter for the modmins to weigh in on, people can make their own judgements.

This place used to be good, but it really isn't any more and it's contributions like yours above that contribute to the unwelcome, unfriendly vibe this forum now has.

I think you will find, in fairness to them, the 'modmins weighed in' because ... as they stated ... there were comments in the edited post that were offensive on an open forum. The rule on this forum is to play the ball not the man.

KevS · April 3

Sporky said:

KevS said:
Not how I would judge it by looking at previous posts from the same person.

If you actually want to understand about how materials affect sound there are a bazillion resources out there. While it's a fair few years old, The Science Of Sound by Rosding et al is an excellent and very readable primer (it's only the DSP bit that's out of date, the bulk is acoustics).

For reference - and I'm not saying it makes me an expert - I have a Masters in Electronic Engineering and Music Technology, about twenty years' professional experience in audio visual design and acoustics, and I've built a decent handful of guitars from timber - by hand and using CNC.

In particular, I've spent a fair bit of time testing audio things - and testing customers' perception vs expectation. That includes doing blind cable testing, for example, and setting up rigged tests to demonstrate that what you hear may not be what's actually there.

So feel free to dismiss me as a lying bullying troll (as per your pages-long rant post about anyone who's ever disagreed with you with reasoning and evidence), or consider that like many others here (WezV very much springs to mind) I have at least a pinch of relevant knowledge and experience that you could learn from.

While you are 100% guilty of acting dismissive towards me and anyone you disagree with on this thread..Oh!! You also blatantly state in print that anyone who didn't agree was a Troll...Then you complain that I dismiss you as a Troll..lol. ..It works both ways you know..Or are you only allowed to do that..?..Attitude towards other Human Beings, speaks volumes.. .WezV who you quote made a non judgemental friendly post..I found this very interesting and easy to relate to...You may have all this experience,,but it doesn't entitle you to be dismissive to others who don't..Your tone is cleary dismissive throughout this thread..Nobody likes being treated like that...If you feel the conversation is below you,,Then don't come on and call people Ignorant,leave people alone to enjoy the thread without berating them...

Ignorant maybe has a technical meaning,but it is insensitive and liable to offend to call someone it...I will assume you don't live on another planet than me and you know that..Trying to claim innocence..Sorry you have exposed yourself as being intelligent enough to know that is provocative..I clearly know it is..As do others I imagine..So you must..

I could go and study a bazillion resources ..I thought it would be a bit of lighthearted fun where everybody on a guitar forum could get together and discuss their experiences..Instead some people come and deride a thread that I put some effort into starting..It is called Thread Crapping..It is of course intentional..It is also not a nice thing to do to other people..

I dismissed you as a Troll because of your attitude on here and acting superior to other people..
I am still Flabbergasted by your,statement,,"Anyone who doesn't Agree with you is a Troll or Ignorant".
My Gast is truly Flabbered..Then to top it off ,you complain about me dismissing you a Troll..
You have already called everybody else who read your comment one beforehand..lol..
A classic internet moment..Well done..

Why can't you just say nothing and let people actually discuss what they want to rather than acting superior and trying to close down the thread..

At no point do I call you a liar..I was talking about sites you ask questions like Reddit etc where people claim to be allsorts..It was not pointed at you..

If a small handful of others hadn't decided to come along and crap on my thread I started..
I wouldn't have typed all I did...I am sick of people belittling me and trying to ruin things I post..

What gives you that right to do that to other people and yes it is bullying...And I am speaking up about it..
If thread crapping and bullying isn't against the Forum guidelines..
I know I think it should be and the forum would become a more friendly place..

Your Qualifications don't make you a better person..
Instead you seem to use them against other Human Beings,to put them down..
And of course anybody who disagrees with you is Trolling..

Sorry,the Trolling bit,I just couldn't help it...

WezV · April 3

How odd, usually these threads go off the rails for a very different reason!

timmypix · April 3

Was it the great and wise Michael Gove who said that people were sick of experts?

fretmeister · April 3

Moving on...

KevS - here's the book on kindle.

Science of Sound, The: Pearson New International Edition eBook : Rossing, Thomas D., Moore, Richard F., Wheeler, Paul A.: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Sometimes it pops up on one of the internet archive sites for free, but those are restricted at the moment while the USA copyright cases about them happen. Sometimes a cheap copy comes up on ebay too.

The book is still the leading textbook. You'll notice how much we knew 100 years ago. It's not a new science.

So, for the price of a good takeaway (and a free Kindle reader app for your phone / tablet / PC) you can learn more about sound than you ever thought possible. It's written in a very accessible style and doesn't need any advanced maths.

Once you've read it you'll know what things you are right about, what things you are wrong about and more importantly, why.
You'll also be arming yourself against things like false advertising in sound related products.

Get stuck in - you clearly want to know about the subject, and this is the perfect place to start.

Good luck.

fretmeister · April 3

timmypix said:

Was it the great and wise Michael Gove who said that people were sick of experts?

Probably while he was doing a load of charlie... at the same time as he was banning all teachers who had ever got a conviction for any type of drug ever... while he was in charge of all education.

Nothing like a coke addled fool to rant against experts!

Sporky · April 3

fretmeister said:
Nothing like a coke addled fool to rant against experts!

Ah - that explains Kevs giant wall-of-text ramblings and lack of critical thought!

I didn't expect a thank you for the book suggestion, but his deluded, rude ranting us too much. Can't educate pork after all - he's on my ignore list and I'm out.

KevS · April 3

fretmeister said:

timmypix said:

Was it the great and wise Michael Gove who said that people were sick of experts?

Probably while he was doing a load of charlie... at the same time as he was banning all teachers who had ever got a conviction for any type of drug ever... while he was in charge of all education.

Nothing like a coke addled fool to rant against experts!

Fretmeister. I acknowledge this was not written against me and your last line used and elaborated by another..

Although I don't agree with you on your view of the innocent use of ignorant here..
It is obviously a loaded word..

Plus to everyone else...

I also wish to apologise if it looked like I was using what is thought of as a disability to attack Funkfingers..
This was genuinely not my intention,I didn't understand why he kept coming on my posts and saying things to derail or inflame..I wanted to think the kinder more understanding thing.I thought I was maybe jumping to conclusions and it was a breakdown in communication,,this happened to me before online with the condition I mentioned....I was genuinely trying to be thoughtful.Because his comments so repetitive and he kept getting off with it..I thought it was me misunderstanding..I thought allowances were being made by the Mods,,I was trying to use empathy to communicate..Partly to stop him attacking me..Yes.

I do not view the condition I mentioned in a negative way..

I done voluntary work teaching guitar,before my health got bad and some of these people were on the spectrum..They were very kind to me and explained that they often take things that are said, literally or can be more analytical in the way they think...This could come across misconstrued,,but nothing bad was intended..Even humour happened when I said,,"wait a second".. So someone counted.."One" and then continued..

Just now I have limited mobility but volunteer playing guitar for singalongs in a music group..Most of the people in the group are Schizophrenic..So is my best friend..We support each other..Along with my mobilty,heart and diabetes problems..I have depression and anxiety..So I do not use Health problems Physical or Mental to mock people...I have to listen to bigotry,,mainly through fear and misunderstanding from Taxi Drivers as I said I have limited mobility,,so 2 Taxis each time..It is mutual help as I get out of the house once a week..The guy who I organise this through,the Assistant Manager is in hospital with a collapsed lung just now..Obviously not good..If he comes back to work..I am willing no problem to send a letter to the Mods to acknowledge this...I try to make the World a better place..Let's face it there are a lot of people intent on empowering themselves by doing the opposite..

I don't want anyone's sympathy..I feel a bit hurt that people thought I was using what is classed as an illness to attack someone,,that's the bit that bothers me..I was in my own naive way trying to Express Empathy and build a bridge..

Any accusations of thread derailment and bullying still stand..
I didn't report anything until the last "Pork" post..

I stand up to Bullies in real life too and will keep trying to do my thing..
Derailing this thread has ruined it for me and ruins other threads for others..
I think it is out of order...

I was going to post about one of my Kluson Tuners,,but I know I am letting myself in for Abuse,
or being told to go and find the information..
I find talking about shared personal experience interesting and informative,,what I thought a forum was for.
you also often find nuggets of wisdom not in books..

In the case of this thread I was after a Conversation..
What I thought a Forum was supposed to be about..

If trying to explain myself gets me banned..

Fair enough..What else can I do here..

I'm fed up with being silent about bullying..

fretmeister · April 3

What else can you do here?

Get yourself the book!

I'm sure your local library will be able to get it if you don't want to buy a kindle version (currently the cheapest option).

Cirrus · April 3

OilCityPickups said:
I think you will find, in fairness to them, the 'modmins weighed in' because ... as they stated ... there were comments in the edited post that were offensive on an open forum. The rule on this forum is to play the ball not the man.

I... don't really know why I'm replying at this point. But yes, the modmins weighed in on Kev's post. Funkfingers invited the modmins to weigh in on his post and delete stuff if they thought necessary. My post, which you have not understood, was in reference to that. There's no need for you to defend them as their actions are not being questioned.

Funkfingers actually got to the crux of the issue, I think. It's something that a number of us have noticed about this forum. It's perfectly possible to write a post which is annoying, frustrating & unhelpful without it actually crossing the line, and this seems to happen constantly across a decent proportion of threads. I contribute on plenty of other forums where that doesn't happen. There's a cohort on here who make it unfriendly, and I can't see how that is going to change. For that reason I guess I'm done.

KevS · April 3

Reading back..I was already upset at Funkfingers and the whole incident involving that..
I initially only thought the post by sporky about trolling or Ignorant was a bit dodgy..
I realise now I may have reacted a bit too far..He still should have worded things more tactfully..
His belligerent part of his reply did inflame me..
If that hadn't happened,I realise I wouldn't have reacted.
He was guilty of some stuff,but Funkfingers,,reporting me for trying to reach out to him really baited,,me..

Sporky got a reply,I think partly deserved but I maybe went in a bit too hard..
.I don't like folk baiting me,but some of that was still left over from Funkfingers..
None of my comments about self proclaimed experts were about people on here..
We have all seen it on Reddit etc

I don't think I have ever reported a Post before..
In retrospect I should have reported Funkfingers rather than trying to come up with solutions for
his derailing comments..I will learn next time..
I don't like telling on people,,but I feel me trying to reach out was used as a trap by Funkfingers..

Also I want to point out..I meant no harm by my first post...
I was not starting an argument..I tried to make that mega clear,,
I feel Funkfingers tried to hijack the thread into and argument as I pointed out in my deleted comment....
I feel if only the comments that went out of the guidelines were deleted..
The thread would have made more sense..
I didn't react out of nowhere..

So many good folk on the thread too..
Thank you for joining in..

I did try and say all I could at the start to stop the thread being derailed...

fretmeister · April 3

Buy the book!

Ignoring the whole "ignorance is an insult or not" thing - so I'll use the phase 'not knowing' - the book will cure any not-knowing issues.

You don't strike me as someone who doesn't want to understand the subject - more that you really do want to understand it but don't really know where to start.

It's not just academics - when you gig you'll understand why some setups work better than others. It won't be a mystery, you'll be able to problem solve at every venue. You'll actually understand why an amp sounds different depending on where it is placed in the room. Why stacks of speakers vertically spread sound horizontally with far greater efficiency than speakers arranged next to each other. You'll understand why some guitar constructions are more efficient than others. You'll see why some builders decide to use super stiff materials like graphite.

There's plenty of Front of House Engineers / guitar builders etc etc who have worked it all out by accident over 30 year careers of hits and misses. They could have had a wonderful starting point by reading just this book, and cut off years of misses.

I noted your earlier comment about "you can find nuggets not in books" - of course you can - but why settle for a nugget when you can have the whole ingot?

When you've read it and digested it you will know more about sound than 99% of the world's population, and you'll know that when you help someone further down the line that help will be based on the very best information, without guess work, hunches, conjecture, or any snake oil that affects this industry so much.

Put yourself in the 1%.

KevS · April 3

fretmeister said:

Buy the book!

Ignoring the whole "ignorance is an insult or not" thing - so I'll use the phase 'not knowing' - the book will cure any not-knowing issues.

You don't strike me as someone who doesn't want to understand the subject - more that you really do want to understand it but don't really know where to start.

It's not just academics - when you gig you'll understand why some setups work better than others. It won't be a mystery, you'll be able to problem solve at every venue. You'll actually understand why an amp sounds different depending on where it is placed in the room. Why stacks of speakers vertically spread sound horizontally with far greater efficiency than speakers arranged next to each other. You'll understand why some guitar constructions are more efficient than others. You'll see why some builders decide to use super stiff materials like graphite.

There's plenty of Front of House Engineers / guitar builders etc etc who have worked it all out by accident over 30 year careers of hits and misses. They could have had a wonderful starting point by reading just this book, and cut off years of misses.

I noted your earlier comment about "you can find nuggets not in books" - of course you can - but why settle for a nugget when you can have the whole ingot?

When you've read it and digested it you will know more about sound than 99% of the world's population, and you'll know that when you help someone further down the line that help will be based on the very best information, without guess work, hunches, conjecture, or any snake oil that affects this industry so much.

Put yourself in the 1%.

I don't know anything about Kindle..Do I need to purchase that too..?

I was never good at the Maths bit..
Or rather didn't finish school past 14,,long story..
Where I went didn't have the facilities..So they decided I should work in the Garden..
So I am a bit spooked and this may not be at a level I can easily consume..
Embarrassing to say that,but true..

I feel folk will think I am thick saying this.
That has been tested and I am not...
We all have different life experiences..
Mine would be interesting to some I guess..
I have seen and experienced a lot,,I'm obviously not going to explain it all here..

My attention span goes,,then I'm not much use....
Thing is I understand the Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor Modes and Chord construction,,
but I can use my ears there too..Plus I've had time to use and absorb them....With Maths it is harder..,
The one interesting thing about Maths is it basically has one answer and no opinions or interpretation,,that is refreshing..
The creative stuff I am OK,but Maths,,it's like my attention span switches off..Then I'm useless..
I found most stuff at school easy,but not Maths,,my Woodwork and Metalwork were pretty mediocre too..
Then again we just seemed to be sanding all the time..Fecking torture..

I can get by,but Maths is a sore point..

Just being very honest here...I imagine a good knowledge of equations and advanced fractions etc will be needed..
What I did learn I've forgot...Some stuff I missed..

So the book may be a big life project rather than a gentle conversation..
That would be a huge step and hard work..

The kindle is better than a book,because my eyesight is fecked at least..

monquixote · April 3

I think people who have industry / academic experience get frustrated when people say "Ooo this is a mystery", or state things that are provably incorrect when the information is out there if you choose to find it.

I don't know anything about the acoustics of wood, but I have professional experience in digital audio / studio design and I have similar frustrations with claims about audio cables etc to the point where I don't even bother to comment anymore because I know it is a waste of time.

I would very much like to know if I'm likely to be able to replicate the sound of my Les Paul (which is too heavy for me), by finding something else with a thick maple neck for example, or if the weight is a factor, or if it's just random and who knows.

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