Arise Sir Jonny

ICBM

Gassage said:

If Queenie says "arise Sir Jonny" and he stands up, maybe she could be more usefully employed in the NHS?

scrumhalf

fretmeister said:

God sits on Hensons's right hand.

In which case God's bottom must be a fetching shade of orange.

koneguitarist

Carter is a far superior fly half than Wilkinson, any fool can see that, just as well that Wilko kicked the winning drop goal, his team got him forward, and he had already missed 3, in my day a forward would have taken him to one side and said stop kicking the f*****g ball away!

Gassage

koneguitarist said:

Rose tinted glasses spring to mind, he was part of a great side in 2003, in 2007 England were lucky to get past USA, Vickery should have been red carded, and it was the most poor game of rugby I have ever seen, how England got through was more down to lenient reffing than anything Wilko did, in fact I would say he was main reason England have been so poor due to his ability to get backs working.

He was part of the reason why the lions of 2005 were so badly beaten. 

As I said nice guy good kicker role model, does work for charity struggling to find anything else to say!

@koneguitarist Olly Barkley played at 10 v USA. Which rather makes you look silly. Wilko played that entire Lions series with a detached bicep too, after 18 months out of the game and 3 games before the tour. In point of fact, that series was lost in the back row battle, especially when Hill was ruled out of series.

Flink_Poyd

Gassage said:

Just heard Dallaglio on radio showing a lot of bad grace re this knighthood.

All he could say was that the public of New Zealand have considered Dallaglio to be a C*nt over there for many years now.

Corrected for you.

Complete waste of time, just another excuse for some pomp and ceremony for people to get their name in the news for a bit. Should be scrapped in my opinion.

VimFuego

you gotta hand it to kone, it's not easy to maintain such a blinkered outlook in the face of such overwhelming evidence.

Gassage

Flink_Poyd said:

Gassage said:

Just heard Dallaglio on radio showing a lot of bad grace re this knighthood.

All he could say was that the public of New Zealand have considered Dallaglio to be a C*nt over there for many years now.

Corrected for you.

Complete waste of time, just another excuse for some pomp and ceremony for people to get their name in the news for a bit. Should be scrapped in my opinion.

Ummm- there was a pun there in the first place.

randomhandclaps

I also completely disagree with Kone.  Wilko has always been a far better fly half than Hendrix.

fretmeister

Anyway, what is far more important is the Saints beating Quins yesterday despite only having 25% of the possession.

Bit nerve-wracking was that! 

BloodEagle

Very well deserved for JW - a fantastic role model and a fantastic sportsman

koneguitarist

VimFuego said:

you gotta hand it to kone, it's not easy to maintain such a blinkered outlook in the face of such overwhelming evidence.

Evidence ? Very good kicker on his day, very average fly half the rest of the time.

 @Gassage I knew Wilko wasn't playing first games in 2007, what I was saying is, England were made to look pretty ordinary by all accounts inc English press, and should have been out when Emerick should have had a penalty try with vickers sent off.

Look at Wilko in 2008 game v Wales at Twickers, he went to pieces and the team followed, Cipriani was looking at Wilkinson thinking what the f**k are you doing? 

Not the first time either, take the pack away and he is anonymous, Great fly halves are good what ever the pack. Like Carter for example. 

Look if nice guys deserve knighthoods then Wilko deserves it. But don't put him in top 10 of greatest players let alone fly halls! 

I think you will find, Carter, Jonathan Davies, Mark Ella, Michael Lynagh, Andrew Merthens, Cliff Morgan  and the list goes on ahead of him. Just had the luxury of possibly the greatest pack in front of him that's all. 

Gassage

Yeah DC has played behind some piss-hole packs. Read, McCaw, Thorne, Williams, Woodcock, Hayman...all shite.

Ella also played behind some great forwards, as did Noddy. Merhtens - he really shouldn't be anywhere near that list and Morgan is a tough one as the game has changed so much.

Hugo Porta should be in your list if you are being serious..

Jiffy- 37 games not enough to put in that august company.

Re taking the pack away, I refer you again to the RWC 2007- at times we had Ben Kay playing at 7 such were the injury issues...

EDIT: has any other player had the impact in NH rugby that Jonny did? I don't think so.

So, if Henson had have been the Lions 10 in 2005 would it have made a difference?

VimFuego

fuck me kone, there's only 2 welshers in that list, them blinkers of yours must be slipping.

Gassage

VimFuego said:

fuck me kone, there's only 2 welshers in that list, them blinkers of yours must be slipping.

In fairness, I would have found Phil Bennett a pretty compelling argument and Barry John, but unfortunately they too played behind dominant packs so therefore must be immediately discounted.

I am surprised he missed Malcolm Dacey and Neil Jenkins out though.

koneguitarist

No I am being honest, Barry John had a terrible defence, great player though, Phil Bennet, great runner, but not the best of the Welsh.

Carter was always good no matter if pack going back or forward. And let's be honest that England pack of 03 were awesome for power, and back row was every bit as good as Read, Macaw and the like.

 I did Think Porta and some others but those were my immediate thoughts. Jenkins was a better flyhalfs imho than Wilkinson, put them both behind same pack and a lot more tries would have been scored with Jenks running the backs.

As for dominant packs, the Welsh in the 70's were not that dominant, in fact quite the opposite, they were just more aggressive and handled like backs. Look at Mervyn Davies, no big power house as a 8 but a great ball player. 

I remember Wales getting turned over at scrum and line out time and again in the 70's by England, France, Scotland etc. 

you all say I am being too Welsh in my opinions, yet I am being more honest in the appraisals of my players than you are of Wilkinson. 

Gassage

To put Jenkins, a man that struggled at times in his career to keep a Welsh place, in front of someone universally accepted to be an all time great of the game, is ridiculous.

He was so bad at 10 on the Lions 97 tour Gregor Townsend played at 10 in the tests and, just because they needed a goal kicker, Jinks got in at 15. He went on the Lions tour of 2001 and Graham Henry, the then Welsh coach, picked a 21 year old Wilko ahead of him. One thing that underlines my thinking, Lions were far superior in that series until one man left the field, who made any fly half look like god due to his defence of the openside channel (Hill played at openside predominantly for the Lions). Without Hill, the Lions pack crumbled and in the 3rd Test Wilko, on one leg, was prefered to Jinks.

You then have to remember Wilkinson, inarguably the finest defensive 10 in the history of the game, (possibly only Henry Honiball would be close) missed probably 50 or 60 caps through injury, and won a world cup aged 23. Henson and Jenkins were still 'promising' at that stage, not 'the best in the world'.

You should really talk to people who have played with or against him. They would laugh at some of your comments.

And, lastly, any thinking about Wilko's attacking game - look at 2001-3 England, and also look at his performances for Toulon, which have been breathtakingly good.

And, you missed Larkham off your list- IMO the best of all the Wallaby 10's.

lloyd

Comparing different eras is a waste of time-different game. Pro-era wilkinson is England's best without doubt and in the top 5 worldwide easily.....as a Welshman I always hated him on the pitch (which is the best compliment a player can get) but from the way he carries himself off it seems like a good bloke.

If he wants his gong good luck to him, I personally can't understand wanting one....I despise the whole thing, luckily I'll never be offered one!

Gassage

Deffo agree re eras. Although you could say that with better training etc...

RobDavies

Arise Sir Jonny.  You've done quite well for one of those kids that wasn't talented enough to play football.

VimFuego

the game is so different now, it's all about winning the tiny percentages. Some of the great, almost maverick players of the past, the ones who could light up a stadium with a moment of pure genius, probably wouldn't cut the mustard today. It was interesting listening to Toby Booth (one of Bath's coaches) being interviewed during the match and the interviewer mentioned one of baths tries (think it had come through a moment of individual brilliance) and he said it was great, but what they're really about is building and applying pressure in the right parts of the park. That's what wins matches nowadays. Anyone watching the AB's, unless they're a kiwi, would ever call them an exciting team. But what they do, 1-15, is apply increasing amounts of pressure, in the right parts of the pitch. That's why they just keep winning. Personally I think they're a boring team to watch, I'd much rather watch France or Scotland play, but they lose a lot of matches, even if they do it in style.