School me on cabs

monquixote

I've always had 1x12 combos not really by any particular preference it's just what I've always seemed to have. 

My current amp is a 1x12 H&K Puretone. It's a magnificent sounding amp and insanely loud for just about any venue I've encountered however for various reasons covered in another thread I'm seriously considering changing over to a BluGuitar Amp1 

My current band use a PA for vocals and play out of amps. This means the laser beam nature of the smallish 1x12 is a problem in a way in hasn't been with bands where I've had a miced cab.

So tell me about what makes a room filling cab that isn't massive, or back breaking?

Open/Closed?, 1x12/2x10/2x12?, Theile?, Vertical?, V30s?, Mixed Speakers? 

All I know at the moment is I'm thinking I'll probably go with a quality cab like a Zilla as presumably something made out of quality jointed ply is going to sound bigger and better at a given weight than a load of crappy chipboard.

I'm ready to be educated.

EDIT: Should add that I'm predominantly playing soul, funk, and the lighter end of rock.

BowynMadley

I've got an open back zilla 2x12 and it sounds great. I've had v30s, greenbacks and a few others in it never sounded bad. BUT! When I got my open back fingerjointed pine cab it blew the zilla away. Don't get me wrong the pine one was more expensive but it sounds absolutely huge and is considerably lighter. If you want a room filling resonant cab in my opinion pine construction is top draw. I'm fairly sure cornford made the majority of their stuff from pine. Hope that helps
Bo

shaunm

I don't know any techical Know how but I do know I bought an oversized 1x12 Zilla from this forum last month and it's a brilliant bit of kit.

Light and very portable (exactly why I went 1x12) but a big sound, far bigger that the 1x12 Two Rock cab I had.

Mine had a Tayden High Brit speaker in which I think is better suited to being pushed hard rather than a bit of light bluesy musing.

All in all I think the Zilla cabs are brilliant and I'd happily recomend them.

digitalscream

I find 2x12" cabs by far the best for filling a room - as long as you get them off the floor. My Jet City 2x12" cabs are of a reasonable weight with the stock speakers (which I really like), too - only slightly heavier than my Decatone, which means one of themis really easy to carry with the amp without stressing my back.

Sassafras

Open cabs certainly fill a room better. I also like the slightly brighter, more airy sound you get from them. Whenever I've had a close back cab, I've always ended up taking the back off.

hubobulous

2x12 with V30s is the perfect compromise between sonic spread and portability I think. I thought you were using a Redbox to provide the benefits of micing?

There are probably better speakers than the V30 for your style though

simonk

I have a Creamback loaded Zilla 2x12 which is monstrously good but really a bit too big for most of the places we end up playing. I also have an open back Mesa 1x12 which I use with a MkV25 which is a fair bit more portable and fills most places with ample sound. If I didn't have the Mesa I'd order a Zilla 1x12 (love Paul's stuff). Closed cabs will generally be more directional than open, and Thiele's sound massive but are often quite directional too. If you like the sound of your combo though, I'd stick with it. I don't notice much difference in spread between the 1x12 cab and my larger 1x12 combos.

monquixote

Our PA isn't big enough to run the guitars through so the Redbox is used for monitoring as we use IEMs. 

The idea is that I'll move to the Amp1 and use the recording out for the IEMs which will mean that I don't have to bring my amp to rehearsals any more. 

I know V30s aren't really considered the quintessential clean speaker, but I've always got on with them really well. When I had an amp with Jensens I found it really harsh on any overdrive sounds.

ThePrettyDamned

An oversized 1x12 can be pretty good, but doesn't really compare to a proper 2x12 or 4x12. 

That said, I like 1x12, it's practical. Zilla get great reviews for all their cabs. 

Speaker wise, you're in a rut - you need something that can take 100W. The demos of the BluGuitar amp1 mostly use greenback 4x12s it seems - maybe @ICBM or another ampy dude can suggest higher powered greenback voiced speakers? 

EDIT: I play a lot of funk with a strat and metal with a PRS.  For metal, I wouldn't go below a 2x12 for sheer 'size' of sound, but as you know from your amp, a good 1x12 is brilliant for less aggressive styles. 

ICBM

I would go for an open-back 2x12" with a mixed pair of speakers for the most open-sounding, room-filling cab.

V30s are actually quite directional on their own, so a pair of them may not be the best choice.

I'd probably go for something like a Creamback G12M-65 and G12H-75 pair for the blues/classic rock end of the range, a V30 and a G12T-75 for harder rock and old-school metal, or a V30 and a Classic Lead 80 for darker heavier modern rock and metal. Just combinations I know work! I haven't personally tried the Creambacks yet but I love the G12M-25 Greenback and G12H-30 pairing, and the Creambacks are supposed to sound very similar but with higher power rating.

Definitely avoid Jensens if you don't like a slightly scratchy top end on overdriven sounds.

guitarfishbay

I agree on open back for filling a room, and V30s closed back being directional.  But I don't like mixed speakers, at least in a closed back cab.  I've got a V30 / H75 combo in one of my Recto cabs right now, and I prefer the sound of the other which has two V30s.  I've had a 4x12 with V30s / Seventy 80s (which I think are nowhere near as bad as some people say) but again I just preferred the sound of other cabs I've had with matching speakers.  As an aside, I personally was not impressed with Zilla's convertible back, the centre piece was not stiff enough to properly function as a closed back cab when using it as I'd use it without vibrating (loud, palm muting, high powered amp).  The rest of the cab construction was ok (I had a Super Fat Boy 2x12 with V30s and 3 piece back).  The Mesa, Blackstar S1, and EVH cabs I've owned were all noticeably better construction than the Zilla I had.  I often feel like I'm the only person who has had a less than perfect experience with Zilla, though FWIW I bought mine used so have no idea how old it was.

guitarfishbay

Also on horizontal vs vertical - if you have a small enough head you can run it on top of a horizontal cab run vertically if you like.  I often do this for rehearsals if I've only brought one cab but there isn't a suitable chair to sit the cab on to raise it up.  I feel like I feel more punch off the cab run horizontally but get a bit more spread from it run vertically.  I think there is some physics reason for this but I can't explain it.

Chalky

Folks reckon 10" speakers are best for very good dynamics when playing clean, and I get that - have a Princeton 1x10 and Carvin 2×10. But I find myself going back to 12" speakers for the fullness of the sound in the room.

Danny1969

monquixote said:

Our PA isn't big enough to run the guitars through so the Redbox is used for monitoring as we use IEMs. 

The idea is that I'll move to the Amp1 and use the recording out for the IEMs which will mean that I don't have to bring my amp to rehearsals any more. 

I know V30s aren't really considered the quintessential clean speaker, but I've always got on with them really well. When I had an amp with Jensens I found it really harsh on any overdrive sounds.

How can the PA not be big enough, a guitar has less frequency range and dynamics than a human voice. Just mic up and use the PA to give the guitar a little spread. Otherwise the audience  standing nearer your side of the stage are gonna get a lot more guitar than the other side

Cirrus

guitarfishbay said:

As an aside, I personally was not impressed with Zilla's convertible back, the centre piece was not stiff enough to properly function as a closed back cab when using it as I'd use it without vibrating (loud, palm muting, high powered amp).  The rest of the cab construction was ok (I had a Super Fat Boy 2x12 with V30s and 3 piece back).  The Mesa, Blackstar S1, and EVH cabs I've owned were all noticeably better construction than the Zilla I had.

See, this is a good example of how it's all subjective. I totally agree that the zilla three piece closed back isn't nearly as tight sounding as a proper solid single piece back, but that was something I really liked about the Zilla - the resonating back seemed to make the cab more open/ alive sounding than any other closed back cab I've had where for my style of playing and taste they feel a bit too dry, tight and directional. But I can totally see how it'd be poor if you wanted a tighter sound.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

I often feel like I'm the only person who has had a less than perfect experience with Zilla, though FWIW I bought mine used so have no idea how old it was.

No, you're not - I think I've posted about the first one I saw which was (in my opinion) quite poorly made, but I haven't seen inside a more recent one, and they do look better from the outside. I haven't heard of any other bad reports, so I'm happy to put that down to it being a very early example unless proven otherwise.

Danny1969 said:

How can the PA not be big enough, a guitar has less frequency range and dynamics than a human voice. Just mic up and use the PA to give the guitar a little spread. Otherwise the audience  standing nearer your side of the stage are gonna get a lot more guitar than the other side

Easy if it's such a small PA that putting any amount of guitar (or anything else) through it reduces the available power for vocals and so muddies the sound and/or reduces headroom. It does have to be a pretty small one - but something like an old 150W mixer head driving a couple of basic 1x12"s would do it. At that point it isn't really a "PA", it's just a vocal amp.

monquixote

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

How can the PA not be big enough, a guitar has less frequency range and dynamics than a human voice. Just mic up and use the PA to give the guitar a little spread. Otherwise the audience  standing nearer your side of the stage are gonna get a lot more guitar than the other side

Easy if it's such a small PA that putting any amount of guitar (or anything else) through it reduces the available power for vocals and so muddies the sound and/or reduces headroom. It does have to be a pretty small one - but something like an old 150W mixer head driving a couple of basic 1x12"s would do it. At that point it isn't really a "PA", it's just a vocal amp.

That's pretty much it. We have a nice but fairly small PA.

The last gig we played was quite a big hall and in order to fill the room with sound we had to have the PA running about as hard as it can go and still sound good just doing vocals and a little bit of kick drum. I'm trying to convince the guys to let me run some guitar through it as well.

EricTheWeary

We're does this need to put the bass drum through the small vocal PA come from? I have never, ever seen a band and complained that the bass drum wasn't loud enough. I have certainly seen ones were I thought it was too loud and I've certainly seen ones were I thought the vocals were a muddy mess. Unless you are running a rave the volume of the bass fecking drum is less important that almost everything else on that stage. :x
YMMV etc.

ICBM

EricTheWeary said:

We're does this need to put the bass drum through the small vocal PA come from? I have never, ever seen a band and complained that the bass drum wasn't loud enough. I have certainly seen ones were I thought it was too loud and I've certainly seen ones were I thought the vocals were a muddy mess. Unless you are running a rave the volume of the bass fecking drum is less important that almost everything else on that stage. :x
YMMV etc.

You should never put kick drum through the PA unless there are subs. At best it's pointless and at worst muddies the mix for everything else because it absorbs such a large amount of the available amp power, as well as stressing the speakers and making it hard for them to cleanly reproduce the other sounds.

I fully admit to having had a little kick through the PA once or twice even at small-ish gigs when it genuinely wasn't quite beefy enough out in the room, but that was always with subs.

This may hurt for anyone of us who only plays an instrument, but the most important thing in the PA is the *vocals*. Anything that detracts from getting the vocals as loud as necessary and as clear as possible needs to not go through the PA - or you need a bigger PA.

Danny1969

monquixote said:

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

How can the PA not be big enough, a guitar has less frequency range and dynamics than a human voice. Just mic up and use the PA to give the guitar a little spread. Otherwise the audience  standing nearer your side of the stage are gonna get a lot more guitar than the other side

Easy if it's such a small PA that putting any amount of guitar (or anything else) through it reduces the available power for vocals and so muddies the sound and/or reduces headroom. It does have to be a pretty small one - but something like an old 150W mixer head driving a couple of basic 1x12"s would do it. At that point it isn't really a "PA", it's just a vocal amp.

That's pretty much it. We have a nice but fairly small PA.

The last gig we played was quite a big hall and in order to fill the room with sound we had to have the PA running about as hard as it can go and still sound good just doing vocals and a little bit of kick drum. I'm trying to convince the guys to let me run some guitar through it as well.

Lol ....  too small for guitar but you put the kick drum through it

Guitar through PA will be fine unless your some down tuning cookie monster vocal band which you obviously aren't. Cut some lower mid out of the guitar and it will play nicely with the vocals. 

ESBlonde

What about them doughnut foam thingies? Aren't they supposed to spread the beam effect whist taking up no extra space?

My choices seem to have always been 2 cones because they sound good but as the power available in a single driver has shot up the historical need for massive cabs and multiple drivers has fallen. Two 4x12"s were needed to absorb the punishing power of a 100w marshall valve amp with the available cone drivers of the day. Today Jim Marshall might well have used a single cone to do the same job. Perhaps there are some happy accidents in what we perceive as rock and roll sounds.