School me on cabs

monquixote · March 2015

I should explain that our PA is two small stand mount speakers and a sub so the kick drum isn't too much of a problem as the crossover ensures that not much of the kick is going through the tops.

Also the PA belongs to the drummer

ICBM · March 2015

ESBlonde said:
Perhaps there are some happy accidents in what we perceive as rock and roll sounds.

Some? Pretty much *everything* in the accepted sound of rock guitar is a happy accident, from the very concept of distortion onwards…

If gear had been only designed by proper electronics engineers and only played by people who knew how to use it properly, we'd all still be playing jazz sounds through hi-fi amp, basically.

Bidley · March 2015

I'm flogging my Roadkill 2x12 (link in my sig), sounds huge! Closed back though.

jpfamps · March 2015

EricTheWeary said:

We're does this need to put the bass drum through the small vocal PA come from? I have never, ever seen a band and complained that the bass drum wasn't loud enough. I have certainly seen ones were I thought it was too loud and I've certainly seen ones were I thought the vocals were a muddy mess. Unless you are running a rave the volume of the bass fecking drum is less important that almost everything else on that stage. :x
YMMV etc.

Couldn't agree more.

It seems to be a real fetish of drummers, not least because they can't hear the bass drum BECAUSE THEY ARE SITTING BEHIND IT.

Interestingly I did a function gig last weekend where due to noise complaints our drummer was told he couldn't use the bass drum, and did the rest of the gig with brushes. Whilst I don't recommend this, we went down very well, and non complained about the lack of bass drum.

jpfamps · March 2015

monquixote said:

I should explain that our PA is two small stand mount speakers and a sub so the kick drum isn't too much of a problem as the crossover ensures that not much of the kick is going through the tops.

Also the PA belongs to the drummer

It's not so much the speakers that are the problem (although they maybe), but also that very loud transients with a large amount of bass energy (eg the bass drum) cause the power amp to sag thus affecting the vocals.

viz · March 2015

Get a 4x12 with wheels, they're really not a problem to lug around and you can wheel other things around on them, like the PA speakers.

monquixote · March 2015

The sub is powered so I don't think that's an issue.

Choice is definitely between a 1x12 and a 2x12. I don't have room in my house car or stage for anything bigger

ICBM · March 2015

monquixote said:

The sub is powered so I don't think that's an issue.

That does take it beyond just being a 'vocal PA' though

.

I still don't think it's a great idea to put guitar through the PA unless you can guarantee that it won't reduce the power and clarity for the vocals even slightly. It probably won't hurt if it's just a small amount for dispersion though.

I also think the everything-through-the-PA proponents underestimate how good a band can sound with the *right* unmic'ed backline and the right placement of it - which is almost as important. And certainly does not mean a small 1x12" guitar amp on the floor, no matter how well that works when it's mic'ed. (Personally I still prefer to hear the amp, anyway.)

I may be a total dinosaur on this, but I still think that mic'ing everything, unnecessary amounts of foldback, IEMs, and all the other 'modern ways of doing it' detract from the feel and sound of a live band in a small space. It's not meant to be perfect, it's meant to be live.

But that's just my opinion...

monquixote · March 2015

For those that are interested our PA is an HK LUCAS system which (I think) has 2 x 150w 8" tops and a 700w 15" sub.

We've only used it for one gig so far and it was a pretty big function room where we needed about as much as it could give (and still sound good) to get the vocals over. I think realistically we will need to put some guitar through it for venues which aren't quite as large.

Anyway back to the guitar cab.

What's the most significant element of a room filling cabinet?

Is it the size of cabinet, or the number of drivers that's more important?

Also does it matter that the speakers are in the same box?

For example if I had a pair of small 1x12s and brought one for smaller gigs and two for bigger gigs I could put them a little way apart which in my simple brain would result in more spread than a 2x12, or have I misunderstood?

ICBM · March 2015

I would say it's a combination of those factors

. But that the number of drivers is the most important.

My experience with using two small amps - in my case actually 1x10s" - to try to improve dispersion is that they were still very directional, and that moving them apart or pointing them in different directions didn't actually help, if anything it made them sound somehow even smaller and more directional than when they were side by side facing the same way. When they were side by side they did sound almost exactly the same as a 2x10" of twice the power. (Two original Super Champs vs one Vibrolux Reverb.)

Danny1969 · March 2015

ICBM said:

monquixote said:

The sub is powered so I don't think that's an issue.

That does take it beyond just being a 'vocal PA' though .

I still don't think it's a great idea to put guitar through the PA unless you can guarantee that it won't reduce the power and clarity for the vocals even slightly. It probably won't hurt if it's just a small amount for dispersion though.

I also think the everything-through-the-PA proponents underestimate how good a band can sound with the *right* unmic'ed backline and the right placement of it - which is almost as important. And certainly does not mean a small 1x12" guitar amp on the floor, no matter how well that works when it's mic'ed. (Personally I still prefer to hear the amp, anyway.)

I may be a total dinosaur on this, but I still think that mic'ing everything, unnecessary amounts of foldback, IEMs, and all the other 'modern ways of doing it' detract from the feel and sound of a live band in a small space. It's not meant to be perfect, it's meant to be live.

But that's just my opinion...

monquixote said:

For those that are interested our PA is an HK LUCAS system which (I think) has 2 x 150w 8" tops and a 700w 15" sub.

We've only used it for one gig so far and it was a pretty big function room where we needed about as much as it could give (and still sound good) to get the vocals over. I think realistically we will need to put some guitar through it for venues which aren't quite as large.

Anyway back to the guitar cab.

What's the most significant element of a room filling cabinet?

Is it the size of cabinet, or the number of drivers that's more important?

Also does it matter that the speakers are in the same box?

For example if I had a pair of small 1x12s and brought one for smaller gigs and two for bigger gigs I could put them a little way apart which in my simple brain would result in more spread than a 2x12, or have I misunderstood?

If you were using 2 x 12" cabs then you put one either side of the stage, that would be much more effective

monquixote · March 2015

Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to get 2 cabs in my car or store them at my house, but that would be very cool.

Ultimately I'd like to get a bigger PA and not have an amp at all.

Perhaps I should spend the money on a powered full range to beef up the PA.

hubobulous · March 2015

I was going to suggest perhaps concentrating on the PA. Might reap rewards.....

guitarfishbay · March 2015

Put simply with cabs it sort of works like this: big box = big tone, smaller box = smaller tone. There is a happy medium/best compromise, and IMO that is the 2x12 cab. Two 1x12 cabs will just give you two smaller tones spread further out. I think you'd get more pleasing results with a good quality 2x12.

Though expanding PA is probably a better choice given you always use your own.

Danny1969 · March 2015

When it comes to expanding the PA most people automatically assume bigger speakers etc more bins but the biggest improvement will come from getting a decent digital desk ... as that allows you to get all the signals under control BEFORE they hit the speakers. I mean you can mic up a drum kit and put if through a pair of desktop computer speakers once you have set the correct EQ and compression.

monquixote · March 2015

Danny1969 said:

When it comes to expanding the PA most people automatically assume bigger speakers etc more bins but the biggest improvement will come from getting a decent digital desk ... as that allows you to get all the signals under control BEFORE they hit the speakers. I mean you can mic up a drum kit and put if through a pair of desktop computer speakers once you have set the correct EQ and compression.

Already done that. We have a couple of grands worth of Allen and Heath desk we (meaning our drummer) recently invested in.

Danny1969 · March 2015

Well with an HK Lucas and a QU I would put everything through the PA as you already have the tools to process the audio correctly and give the speakers an easy life. If he's spent a couple of K on an A&H then he's either brought a QU16 or QU24, both are awesome desks in terms of dynamic processing

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2015

Tip him well if you want him to pick you up for your return journey

monquixote · March 2015

I agree that the better solution is to have it going via the PA if we possibly can.

I think I might go the route of just having a 1x12 for when we do gigs without our own PA and focusing on perhaps getting a powered speaker or two we can add on to our system when we need to do bigger venues with our own kit.

I think ideally I'd like to not have an amp at all, but the only thing I can imagine doing that with is a Kemper which is out of my price range at the moment.

JCA2550 · March 2015

1 x 12 or 2 x 12, definitely open back. Pine cabs are definitely lighter IME and lend a subtle extra warmth or something to the room sound, hard to be precise but I like it.

The other thing that makes a massive difference to filling the room, whether it's a single or multiple speaker cab is fitting a Mitchell Doughnut (Donut). I'm Surprised that no one has mentioned this dirt cheap mod? I've fitted "Donuts" to almost every combo or cab I've used in the last few years as have all my guitar playing friends on hearing the results.

I found a thread here.

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/4733/beam-blockers-anyone-tried-them

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