The cricket thread

scrumhalf

Stuckfast said:

WTF is the third umpire playing at in this game? There is no way the batsman played a shot there.

Leach and Moeen bowling well in tandem here but it's a bit academic now.

Before this test ther was a lot of talk about not needing neutral umpires because the overall standard of umpiring had improved andthere were three DRS appeals available. Maybe not so much now.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

Michael Vaughan bowled deliveries like that (famously against Tendulkar).  That doesn't mean I'd pick Vaughan as a frontline spinner.

The pitch today was turning a lot more than the one from the first test.  Dom Bess would have got the ball doing things as well.  On that pitch, to go at 4.3 an over is too much.  It's telling that Root was bowling at the end with the new ball.

At this point in his career, we know what Moeen is.  Bess is young and improving.  He would benefit from the experience and get better.

Something wasn't right with Bess in the 2nd innings of the 1st Test where he bowled like a drain. Maybe tiredness, maybe a bit of weariness given that he's a young guy who's been in the Covid bubble for a long time now. 

Outside of him and Leach, our options are incredibly limited. Mason Crane has 1 Test under his belt, Matt Parkinson and Amar Virdi have none, Liam Dawson's injured, Rashid is apparently over at Test level and hasn't played any first-class cricket since the Bridgetown Test against the West Indies in Jan 2019. You look at the top wicket takers in the BWT last season and it's pretty scant on the spin front outside of Surrey colours. 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=13701;type=tournament

Where do you go other than Moeen when you need a replacement? His bowling wasn't great first innings but that's what you'd expect for a guy who hasn't bowled in a first class match since  September 12th 2019. 

After a bit of complaints about our spinners, it's interesting to look at Leach versus Swann after they'd played 13 Tests. 

13 Tests, 23 innings, 506.1 overs, 50 wickets at 30.46. SR of 60.7. 
13 Tests, 23 innings, 562.3 overs. 53 wickets at 31.32, SR of 63.6. 

scrumhalf

Indian tailenders are now taking the piss. I only hope we can get within 300 of the target, when it comes. 

Heartfeltdawn

scrumhalf said:

Indian tailenders are now taking the piss. I only hope we can get within 300 of the target, when it comes. 

I was happy to settle for being with 400!

crunchman

If anyone ever makes me England coach, there will be no nightwatchmen.

Heartfeltdawn

Not on that pitch. I can see the rationale for a nightwatchman if you had another day to bat, plenty of wickets and you could either save or win the game. In this instance, there is no logic to it. England were not going to win or draw. Illogical and, for all the talk on the telly from Strauss about England needing to show intent, it showed a lack of intent. 

Rich210

I was thinking this too. The best chance England have of getting anything is by having their best batters against spin in and trying to get in. 

As a wicketkeeper it's definitely a fun one....

Heartfeltdawn

So: Joe Denly's last 8 Tests: 478 runs at 34. Not good enough, dropped. 

Rory Burns in his last 8 Tests: 312 runs at 24. 

Crawley and Sibley as our opening pair this summer? 

Stuckfast

I thought Moeen bowled well in the second innings. To my mind he's just a better, more attacking bowler than Bess, at least when he's in some sort of form. Looked like he was always making something happen and could easily have picked up more wickets.

I've not seen Virdi or Moriarty bowl but they're both said to be very promising. I can't see either Parkinson or Crane doing well on a track like this -- they're both too slow through the air.

Nice to see the third umpire give Root something back there. How DRS called that Umpire's Call I've no idea.

crunchman

Heartfeltdawn said:

So: Joe Denly's last 8 Tests: 478 runs at 34. Not good enough, dropped. 

Rory Burns in his last 8 Tests: 312 runs at 24. 

Crawley and Sibley as our opening pair this summer? 

Who bats 3?

Crawley looks like a solution to number 3, which has been a problem for years. I'm not convinced that Lawrence has the capability to bat at 3 in places like Australia.

One option would be to use Stokes higher up the order like SA did with Kallis.

Are they going to have to shoehorn Buttler in as a batsman?  Foakes is averaging something like 47 at the moment.  If he keeps going like that, then he should definitely stay in.  Buttler is then fighting for a spot at 5 or 6 with the likes of Pope and Lawrence.

guitars4you

Hope Root and co can at least bat for a while and shut up Kohli and his bloomin' moaning mates - I like the way Root can just smile and annoy them with that smile

sixstringsupplies

"Geez, how good is Foakes?" tweeted Adam Gilchrist.

Wow, I knew he was a good keeper, but as many pundits are saying, it "melts in his gloves",  a pleasure to watch. (granted he missed that easy stumping) It has also been a while since I saw a WK stand up to a pace bowler. 

He has to play going forward. Foakes and Stone the only positives from this test. Though Leach has done well, seems to be the most consistent at bowling line and length. I sincerely hope that in the summer, when it is only 1 spinner in the team, it is Leach. He is clearly our premier spinner. 

Hoping for a miracle tomorrow but getting up at 4am nonetheless. Love it....soldering wiring kits with cricket in the background.

Over by mid afternoon though.

We will see what Lawrence does tomorrow, but I expect Crawley and Bairstow will come straight in, meaning Burns and (Lawrence) get dropped? Tough one...I assume Foakes plays so not sure who else the drop.

Even though it is a day night wicket, tough call on the bowling attack. I wouldnt be suckered in to seam, it will still be a dry, ragging wicket in India.

Stuckfast

It does make you realise how few specialist wicketkeepers there are in international cricket at the moment. Foakes and Mohammed Rizwan just look miles better than anyone else.

Leach is decent but is he a match winner? Better than Ashley Giles for sure, but not in the same league as Swann or Panesar.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

Who bats 3?

James Hildreth now, Tom Lammonby in the future. 

#somersetgags

Personally I think Crawley is the number 3 for the future. Dan Lawrence has been given the really shitty stick and really needs a run in the side lower down the order. Most of the lineup is now settled if fully fit.

The keeper situation is going to be interesting. Thus far we haven't lost out with Buttler not being in the side in terms of runs or behind the stumps (the missed stumping today was a lot tougher than most think). 

Heartfeltdawn

sixstringsupplies said:

"Geez, how good is Foakes?" tweeted Adam Gilchrist.

Wow, I knew he was a good keeper, but as many pundits are saying, it "melts in his gloves",  a pleasure to watch. (granted he missed that easy stumping) It has also been a while since I saw a WK stand up to a pace bowler. 

He has to play going forward. Foakes and Stone the only positives from this test. Though Leach has done well, seems to be the most consistent at bowling line and length. I sincerely hope that in the summer, when it is only 1 spinner in the team, it is Leach. He is clearly our premier spinner. 

Hoping for a miracle tomorrow but getting up at 4am nonetheless. Love it....soldering wiring kits with cricket in the background.

Same here. Couple of hours cricket, out at lunch for a quick run, back to watch a bit more, get the brats up at 8am for breakfast, then a nap around lunchtime. A markedly different lifestyle to this time last year, that's for sure. 

Heartfeltdawn

Stuckfast said:

It does make you realise how few specialist wicketkeepers there are in international cricket at the moment. Foakes and Mohammed Rizwan just look miles better than anyone else.

Leach is decent but is he a match winner? Better than Ashley Giles for sure, but not in the same league as Swann or Panesar.

Foakes and Rizwan really are way ahead of everyone else. S'funny, 30 years ago people were bemoaning the lack of spinners around and then we had the explosion of Warne and Murali. Now we're bemoaning keepers. It would be good to see a renaissance of the art as watching a keeper standing up and doing the job well is an absolute delight. 


Records of English slow bowlers after 13 Tests (the current Test is Leach's 14th):

Leach - 506.1 overs, 50 wickets at 30.46. SR of 60.7. 2x 5-wicket hauls. 

Swann - 562.3 overs. 53 wickets at 31.32, SR of 63.6. 3x 5-wicket hauls. 

Panesar - 490.5 overs, 42 wickets at 33.71, SR of 70.1. 3x 5-wicket hauls. 

Bess - 400 overs, 36 wickets at 32, SR of 66.6. 2x 5-wicket hauls. 

Moeen 380.3 overs, 41 wickets at 34.68, SR of 55.6. 1x 5 wicket haul. 

13

24

380.3

52

1422

41

6/67

8/129

34.68

3.73

55.6

So in terms of strike rate and average, Leach is at least matching historic rivals and his two English rivals at the moment, and would have matched the historic rival 5 wicket hauls had a catch been taken today toward the end.  The further context needed is who they took their wickets against. I won't do everyone but it is relevant when comparing Leach to his immediate rival. Most people would agree that India, Australia, NZ, and England are the top sides in Tests right now. 7 of Leach's Tests have been against Big 4 sides, two of them coming in the absolute slow bowling graveyard that is NZ. Bess has played a solitary Test against against a Big 4 side and we saw how that went in Chennai.

Whether Leach ultimately is as good as Panesar and Swann is really down to him. The more he bowls and gets used to the action changes, the better hopefully he will get. Right now, I don't think there is a single metric that another English spinner could pull out to say "I deserve the number 1 slow bowler slot ahead of JL". Unless he is injured, he will go to Australia next year as our number 1 and the real battle is to figure out who goes with him. Will Bess develop, what's going on with Moeen, will the young 'uns do anything that demands selection? The likelihood is that we will go with the two old boys leading the attack, rotate the young quicks, hope Stokes will be fit for those spells we know he can bowl, and Leach is there to keep things tight and allow the seamers to rotate. 

'tis also worth considering the record of these two blokes after their 13th Test match compared to our chap:

Murali - 566.5 overs, 52 wickets at 29.09, SR of 65.4. 3x 5 wicket hauls.

Warne - 530.2 overs, 47 wickets at 26.61, SR of 67.7. 1x 5 wicket haul (Warne's 12th Test contained the infamous Ball of the Century). 

Also worth remembering that Warne went to India having played 64 Tests and bagging 303 wickets ( so quite a bit more experience than Leach and Bess). He ended that series being outbowled statistically by Gavin Robertson whilst his oppo leggie bagged 23 wickets at 18. 

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1997-98/AUS_IN_IND/AUS_IN_IND_FEB-APR1998_TEST_AVS.html

Even an outright worldie like Warne found India tough going. 

Mudcrutch

This second test has been very painful to watch.
Just hope the wicket is better for the next one.

scrumhalf

I've no idea how the conditions affect day/night tests in India, whether you get the extravagant swing in the twilight overs.

However, it's test cricket and a welcome diversion in these troubled times. A big thank you to the cricketers who have been bubbled, it can't have been easy being locked away like that. 

Stuckfast

Mudcrutch said:

This second test has been very painful to watch.
Just hope the wicket is better for the next one.

It certainly was painful. Not sure I'd consider it a bad wicket though. It required a lot of skill to get runs but India made plenty, and it kept things interesting all the way through. Is that any worse than the green pitches you sometimes get here or in New Zealand?

Heartfeltdawn

Stuckfast said:

Mudcrutch said:

This second test has been very painful to watch.
Just hope the wicket is better for the next one.

It certainly was painful. Not sure I'd consider it a bad wicket though. It required a lot of skill to get runs but India made plenty, and it kept things interesting all the way through. Is that any worse than the green pitches you sometimes get here or in New Zealand?

A Test pitch should last five days. That one was poor halfway through day 2. 

Lots of wickets in NZ start green and get better. 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/why-test-cricket-in-new-zealand-is-unlike-anywhere-else-in-the-world-1216815

We do have green pitches here. If a bowler bowls on a good length and consistently moves it away from you, then you adjust your technique to counter that. Adjusting technique for the sort of popping deliveries we saw over the last few days is a lot harder. The Indians can do it because they've grown up on wickets like that. For all the swing and seam we have in England, it is rare that inconsistent bounce is a factor in the manner seen in India or somewhere like the WACA in the mad old days when the cracks would open up. 

It's all about balance. India went through a spell of trying to prep batsmen for overseas series by producing seam friendly wickets in the Ranji Trophy. When 2015 came round, sides went the other way and a load of underprepared spin-friendly tracks came up. The effects were pronounced. 

https://i.imgur.com/T0NftoM.png

The comments of Dravid and Mohammed Kaif would apply to this wicket too in my view. 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/result-oriented-pitches-leave-ranji-trophy-in-a-spin-945901