Fake Vintage Gibson TV Yellow Junior on eBay

IvisonGuitars

'Reliced' Custom Shop TV Junior trying to be passed off as the real deal on eBay...

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=291478899496

**edit** In fact I don't think it's a Gibson CS either, serial number is certainly wrong (typeface/hyphen)

**edit 2** I have changed the title of the thread as I fell there is some good information in the posts which may help people to spot a fake in future.

ICBM

It's also an object lesson in how to spot fake wear and damage.

http://www.qscomics.com/realcovers/tracks/lpj8.jpg

Notice how every one of those dings has been created by the same tool, at the same angle and with roughly the same force. That never happens with real wear.

Once you see that, it becomes even more obvious (although it should have been anyway) that the same applies to this…

http://www.qscomics.com/realcovers/tracks/lpj4.jpg

Where there are essentially two types of uniform mark, the small round dings and the oblique softer dents, all almost exactly the same size and depth and applied at roughly the same angle, and "evenly randomly" scattered over the top.

Absolutely classic "shotgun" relic-ing.

IvisonGuitars

It's a nice try though, wouldn't you agree @ICBM?! ;-)

ICBM

miserneil said:

It's a nice try though, wouldn't you agree @ICBM?! ;-)

Superficially, yes. It looks quite authentic until you look closely, but I agree with you that it's a fake of some sort.

Really accurate relic-ing is actually very difficult. Most attempts - like this one - give the game away by overdoing it rather than underdoing it.

Iamnobody

Another great lesson from @icbm - cheers I've learnt something.

I can't see me ever looking to buy a real vintage piece mainly because of the cost - but I have some more tools now to help spot a fake should I need them.

I wouldn't have thought about that level of scrutiny!

GuitarMonkey

miserneil said:

'Reliced' Custom Shop TV Junior trying to be passed off as the real deal on eBay...

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=291478899496

**edit** In fact I don't think it's a Gibson CS either, serial number is certainly wrong (typeface/dash)

I agree. The headstock is wrong and looks like a black facing whereas it should be painted. Or it might be painted (from the corner "wear") but it definitely looks nothing like what it should.

The finish is also wrong for either. 

I suppose it could be a poorly done restoration?

IvisonGuitars

GuitarMonkey said:

miserneil said:

'Reliced' Custom Shop TV Junior trying to be passed off as the real deal on eBay...

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=291478899496

**edit** In fact I don't think it's a Gibson CS either, serial number is certainly wrong (typeface/dash)

I agree. The headstock is wrong and looks like a black facing whereas it should be painted. Or it might be painted (from the corner "wear") but it definitely looks nothing like what it should.

The finish is also wrong for either. 

I suppose it could be a poorly done restoration?

Yes, the finish is definitely 'wrong' for the period it purports to be.

The wood underneath - looking  at the rear of the headstock where it has chipped away from the tuner screws is too new for it to be a resto IMO and the headstock edges are too sharp for an older guitar.

The silk screen logos are modern, the older ones have a very slight metallic sheen to them.

Truss rod cover should be single ply.

Scratchplate is the wrong shape.

All that 'wear' on the body and not a single ding or wear on the back of the neck....

It's got a real '58 serial number but the hyphen was never used by Gibson, perhaps a little nod by the builder (if it's not a CS) to mark it out as a replica/fake?

ICBM

GuitarMonkey said:

I suppose it could be a poorly done restoration?

I wondered that too.

I also wonder if it's had a head break - the wood grain is oddly over-filled in exactly the place you would expect, right where the three parallel check lines are.

http://www.qscomics.com/realcovers/tracks/lpj10.jpg

That might explain a heavily refinished head facing.

If so, the description is technically accurate because it doesn't state that it *hasn't* been refinished.

IvisonGuitars

ICBM said:

GuitarMonkey said:

I suppose it could be a poorly done restoration?

I wondered that too.

I also wonder if it's had a head break - the wood grain is oddly over-filled in exactly the place you would expect, right where the three parallel check lines are.

http://www.qscomics.com/realcovers/tracks/lpj10.jpg

From the pics I don't think so, a break is much harder to conceal in TV, generally they are blown over completely opaque and that still has the grain showing.

 

Philly_Q

Nothing to do with its fake-ness, but there's a lot of dodgy looking repair/filler work around the bridge studs which I don't like the look of at all.

Oh, and I've just noticed there's no screw hole at the heel of the neck.  Moving the strap button to the top horn is common, but I've never seen one like that from stock (correct me if I'm wrong).

Not a bad job overall though, is it?  Now that you've pointed things out (good work, chaps!) they become obvious, but to be honest if I'd seen it on eBay I wouldn't have immediately thought fake.

IvisonGuitars

Philly_Q said:

Nothing to do with its fake-ness, but there's a lot of dodgy looking repair/filler work around the bridge studs which I don't like the look of at all.

Oh, and I've just noticed there's no screw hole at the heel of the neck.  Moving the strap button to the top horn is common, but I've never seen one like that from stock (correct me if I'm wrong).

Not a bad job overall though, is it?  Now that you've pointed things out (good work, chaps!) they become obvious, but to be honest if I'd seen it on eBay I wouldn't have immediately thought fake.

Yeah the bass side bridge post definitely has something funky going on and good spot with the strap button hole (or lack of) @Philly_Q! I missed that, looks like it has never had one there either.

Sassafras

Love the way there's buckle rash on the front as well as the back. How did they manage that, I've certainly never played a guitar back to  front, the strings are in the wrong place.

IvisonGuitars

Sassafras said:

Love the way there's buckle rash on the front as well as the back. How did they manage that, I've certainly never played a guitar back to  front, the strings are in the wrong place.

True! 

It may have been an attempt to have a 'fault' to get the lacquer to crack from when giving it the freeze treatment. A futile attempt if it's CS lacquer as it has too many plasticisers in it.

IvisonGuitars

I thought I'd drop the seller a quick message to point out the dubious nature of the guitar in case he had been scammed by it previously...

His reply...

"Utter Nonsense".

stonevibe

I just sent the fella a link to this thread, so he can defend himself.

He may have all the information you need. So I figured it was better to inform him of this discussion.

ICBM

Philly_Q said:

Nothing to do with its fake-ness, but there's a lot of dodgy looking repair/filler work around the bridge studs which I don't like the look of at all.

That actually makes me think it might be a real one, and makes it conclusive that it's a refin even if the relic job wasn't obvious, since the finish is over whatever it is. I spotted that originally but forgot to mention it .

Philly_Q said:

Oh, and I've just noticed there's no screw hole at the heel of the neck.  Moving the strap button to the top horn is common, but I've never seen one like that from stock (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think you can just see the filled hole if you look carefully, it's between the tips of the black 'dirt marks' than angle in towards each other in a sort of V.

Absolutely no doubt it's not an original '58 finish, but it does begin to look like it might be a genuine old guitar under it.

IvisonGuitars

ICBM said:

Philly_Q said:

Nothing to do with its fake-ness, but there's a lot of dodgy looking repair/filler work around the bridge studs which I don't like the look of at all.

That actually makes me think it might be a real one, and makes it conclusive that it's a refin even if the relic job wasn't obvious, since the finish is over whatever it is. I spotted that originally but forgot to mention it .

Philly_Q said:

Oh, and I've just noticed there's no screw hole at the heel of the neck.  Moving the strap button to the top horn is common, but I've never seen one like that from stock (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think you can just see the filled hole if you look carefully, it's between the tips of the black 'dirt marks' than angle in towards each other in a sort of V.

Absolutely no doubt it's not an original '58 finish, but it does begin to look like it might be a genuine old guitar under it.

@ICBM I'd have to disagree, the headstock is too modern for it to be a re-fin original IMO. I've asked the seller for a cavity shot, that will help clear things up for me.

ICBM

miserneil said:

@ICBM I'd have to disagree, the headstock is too modern for it to be a re-fin original IMO.

Completely replaced headstock with a very cleanly spliced scarf joint? That patch with the three check lines still looks very suspicious to me.

I was trying to see if the wood grain on the head and the neck lines up, but it's not clear enough.

darcym

don't the custom shop and VOS ones also have the strap pin on the back of the neck, rather than the top horn ?

IvisonGuitars

ICBM said:

miserneil said:

@ICBM I'd have to disagree, the headstock is too modern for it to be a re-fin original IMO.

Completely replaced headstock with a very cleanly spliced scarf joint? That patch with the three check lines still looks very suspicious to me.

I was trying to see if the wood grain on the head and the neck lines up, but it's not clear enough.

Possibly. But if you were going to go to that trouble, why not get the decals right? The authentic ones are readily available, I have a set sat in front of me now.

Here's a vintage junior headstock:

See how the spacing and thickness of the JUNIOR is noticeably thinner compared to a modern Junior headstock (That has been reliced by Chicago Fret Works):

darcym said:

don't the custom shop and VOS ones also have the strap pin on the back of the neck, rather than the top horn ?

Yes, as per the originals.

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

I think you can just see the filled hole if you look carefully, it's between the tips of the black 'dirt marks' than angle in towards each other in a sort of V.

Yeah, you could be right.  It's hard to tell, could just be a shallow dent!  

If the hole's there and it's been covered up, I guess it hints at a "genuine" refinish (at some point in the guitar's history) rather than any attempt to pretend it's the original finish.  Same with the finish around the bridge studs, as you mentioned.