Fake Vintage Gibson TV Yellow Junior on eBay

ICBM

The thickness of the Les Paul signature script is much thinner on the original too - something the Ebay one does have more or less right. (If anything it's actually *too* thin.)

Why someone would use the wrong decal - don't know, maybe they didn't look closely at an original! The same reason as they made the relic job look obviously fake…

I think the real question is whether the guitar (or at least 90% of it…) could possibly be an original '58. It's certain the finish isn't, but the way the listing has been written doesn't actually claim it is, just that the *guitar* is. Whether the seller knows exactly that and has been clever, or really believes the guitar to be all-original and has done it accidentally, I have no idea. Or maybe it's just a complete fake.

IvisonGuitars

And of course, the MASSIVE elephant in the room is that if it IS a genuine vintage TV Model Gibson it should say TV MODEL and not JUNIOR under the Les Paul script.

ICBM

miserneil said:

And of course, the MASSIVE elephant in the room is that if it IS a genuine vintage TV Model Gibson it should say TV MODEL and not JUNIOR under the Les Paul script.

lol, yes .

I should have said earlier - my guess would be that if it is an original it started life as a cherry one, since TVs are much rarer and more valuable, so if you're going to refinish it you might as well cash in. And TV is much better for hiding repair work, although I agree it's still tricky.

GuitarMonkey

Have a wiz.

IvisonGuitars

ICBM said:

miserneil said:

And of course, the MASSIVE elephant in the room is that if it IS a genuine vintage TV Model Gibson it should say TV MODEL and not JUNIOR under the Les Paul script.

lol, yes .

I should have said earlier - my guess would be that if it is an original it started life as a cherry one, since TVs are much rarer and more valuable, so if you're going to refinish it you might as well cash in. And TV is much better for hiding repair work, although I agree it's still tricky.

I'd disagree there i'm afraid chum. 

Remember that bizarre Pinky coloured CS DC Junior that went round the forum a while ago and eventually got re-fined in Pelham Blue?. That was a cherry that had been refined with a TV Yellow. The cherry pore filler stays in the wood (there's no way of getting it out unless you want to spent a month with a pin and a magnifying glass) and it eventually leaches into the new finish causing the pinkish hue. 

My guess, going on the re-fin angle, is that it's a standard satin model that has been re-fined as a Gloss TV.

If the cavity shot appears then we'll have more of an idea.

ICBM

Yes, I think you're right. My guess will be that you never get the cavity photos, since he already knows you think it's a fake. But we will wait and see...

stonevibe

miserneil said:

ICBM said:

miserneil said:

And of course, the MASSIVE elephant in the room is that if it IS a genuine vintage TV Model Gibson it should say TV MODEL and not JUNIOR under the Les Paul script.

lol, yes .

I should have said earlier - my guess would be that if it is an original it started life as a cherry one, since TVs are much rarer and more valuable, so if you're going to refinish it you might as well cash in. And TV is much better for hiding repair work, although I agree it's still tricky.

I'd disagree there i'm afraid chum. 

Remember that bizarre Pinky coloured CS DC Junior that went round the forum a while ago and eventually got re-fined in Pelham Blue?. That was a cherry that had been refined with a TV Yellow. The cherry pore filler stays in the wood (there's no way of getting it out unless you want to spent a month with a pin and a magnifying glass) and it eventually leaches into the new finish causing the pinkish hue. 

My guess, going on the re-fin angle, is that it's a standard satin model that has been re-fined as a Gloss TV.

If the cavity shot appears then we'll have more of an idea.

No it wasn't it was verified from Gibson USA Custom Shop as a one off special order when I contacted them. 

IvisonGuitars

@stonevibe fair enough my man, I stand corrected on that guitar but I have seen the cherry filler leaching a few times before, in fact @WezV posted this a while ago:

WezV said:

you may also notice it changed from yellow to red - it was cherry red originally and the filler had started to bleed through the yellow

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/LPJ/hardwaregone.jpg

GuitarMonkey

miserneil said:

Possibly. But if you were going to go to that trouble, why not get the decals right? The authentic ones are readily available, I have a set sat in front of me now.

It wouldn't be a decal - the originals were silk-screened.

IvisonGuitars

GuitarMonkey said:

miserneil said:

Possibly. But if you were going to go to that trouble, why not get the decals right? The authentic ones are readily available, I have a set sat in front of me now.

It wouldn't be a decal - the originals were silk-screened.

That's true but unless it was a full scale replica/fake job then decals would be the most available/easiest option....that's why I said decals...ahem... :-\"  :^o ;-)

Skipped

Even George Gruhn makes mistakes, but he has seen about 500 more examples of everything than most of us have so he will not make many mistakes.

I started to doubt my own ability to id the original finish on (for example) a 50's GT when I suddenly remembered just how many GTs (in the UK)  were refinished in the early seventies because they were looking a bit worn.....! Those guitars must be somewhere. You cannot unrefin a guitar. So maybe I am an "expert" on knowing what the wear patterns are like on a 45 year old refin. Useful? Not much.
This may explain why there are only a couple of people in the world that I trust 100% when it comes to old guitars.

thermionic

What's with the black nut painted white?

Skipped

I am wary with pictures but the serial number is screaming wrong even without the dash after the first digit.

WezV

miserneil said:

@stonevibe fair enough my man, I stand corrected on that guitar but I have seen the cherry filler leaching a few times before, in fact @WezV posted this a while ago:

WezV said:

you may also notice it changed from yellow to red - it was cherry red originally and the filler had started to bleed through the yellow

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/LPJ/hardwaregone.jpg

saved me posting that   

Philly_Q

thermionic said:

What's with the black nut painted white?

The eBay listing does say it has a graphite nut - I guess the white paint was just to make it look better.

thermionic

I didn't spot that in the ad. Of course a graphite nut solves the tuning stability issues that LP Juniors are notorious for...

Trotter

Straight edged lines round the serial number indicate a taped off area to perhaps preserve an original serial number when refinishing was taking place? If that is the case it obviously didn't work as the current serial number is as fake as Jordan's tits

ICBM

Trotter said:

Straight edged lines round the serial number indicate a taped off area to perhaps preserve an original serial number when refinishing was taking place?

I think that's just checking.

Also noticeable on the back of the headstock is the almost complete absence of footprints from the original tuners - there are some faint ones where some may have been temporarily fitted, but there's no way that finish ever had a set of Kluson strips screwed down tight for any length of time. But we already know its a refin so no surprise there.

GuitarMonkey

The seller now admits it's a refinish in the listing

ICBM

He's still trying to hedge his bets - "Has it been refinished? I can't say for sure".

To the seller, if you're reading this - be honest. It's obviously and provably refinished. Say so.

The question is about the authenticity of the guitar underneath it. Even if you "just play them", how long is it going to take to undo two screws on the back and four on the front, and take a couple of pictures of the control cavity and the tenon area? Those would answer a lot of questions.

The headstock is still questionable, but if you can show that the body and most of the neck are original, you've got a much better chance of convincing someone it's just had a repair.