Fake Vintage Gibson TV Yellow Junior on eBay

IvisonGuitars

GuitarMonkey;652657" said:

The seller now admits it's a refinish in the listing

Fair enough, but a refinish of what?? The headstock is definitely modern and the request for cavity shots has fallen on deaf ears.

My guess is the seller has bought this in good faith from the U.S. And realises he's been stung, so is trying to move it on. Description is still too vague.

If it is a genuine '58 husk then it's worth £1500k tops.

But I don't think it is.

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

The question is about the authenticity of the guitar underneath it. Even if you "just play them", how long is it going to take to undo two screws on the back and four on the front, and take a couple of pictures of the control cavity and the tenon area? Those would answer a lot of questions.

Good point, the Historics - or certainly recent ones, I don't know the full history - don't have the long full-width neck tenon (I'm not sure why, but that's another debate).  Taking the scratchplate off would clear that up in a second.

IvisonGuitars

ICBM;652662" said:

He's still trying to hedge his bets - "Has it been refinished? I can't say for sure".

To the seller, if you're reading this - be honest. It's obviously and provably refinished. Say so.

The question is about the authenticity of the guitar underneath it. Even if you "just play them", how long is it going to take to undo two screws on the back and four on the front, and take a couple of pictures of the control cavity and the tenon area? Those would answer a lot of questions.

The headstock is still questionable, but if you can show that the body and most of the neck are original, you've got a much better chance of convincing someone it's just had a repair.

This. A cavity shot would clear up a lot of speculation and possible flaming of his listing.

Bogwhoppit

There are a few reliable dealers in the states selling 58, 59 LP DCs for the same amount in $ (Southworth Guitars to name one). I'd rather take the risk on Southworth and pay the import duties then the £ price in the UK - assuming the UK guitar is legit.

ICBM

miserneil said:

A cavity shot would clear up a lot of speculation and possible flaming of his listing.

And the possibility of serious repercussions if he does sell it for anything like that price and the buyer then finds out it's not genuine.

I really don't understand why sellers aren't honest when they find out they've got something questionable. It won't change the fact that what they've got is less valuable than they thought it was even if they really believed it was genuine, and it could open them up to major trouble.

Skipped

As usual I am nodding in agreement with ICBM.
In fact.....it is getting to the point where looking at ebay is just plain annoying. The most annoying ad of all is that £15k Les Paul in the North East. It might be a Conversion? Huh?  It might be a Tokai? Who knows what it is?

It would be great if the seller could just ask Richard Henry to look at the guitar and clear up this mystery for all of us. Now it has become clear that nobody is going to pay £15k or £1500 he has nothing to lose from finding out what he actually has.

IvisonGuitars

Bogwhoppit said:

There are a few reliable dealers in the states selling 58, 59 LP DCs for the same amount in $ (Southworth Guitars to name one). I'd rather take the risk on Southworth and pay the import duties then the £ price in the UK - assuming the UK guitar is legit.

Absolutely!

Skipped said:

As usual I am nodding in agreement with ICBM.
In fact.....it is getting to the point where looking at ebay is just plain annoying. The most annoying ad of all is that £15k Les Paul in the North East. It might be a Conversion? Huh?  It might be a Tokai? Who knows what it is?

It would be great if the seller could just ask Richard Henry to look at the guitar and clear up this mystery for all of us. Now it has become clear that nobody is going to pay £15k or £1500 he has nothing to lose from finding out what he actually has.

I can pretty much bet, that if this guitar was genuine, Richard Henry would have already been round and snapped the guitar up at that price.

As for that LP in the North East, my money is on a Dick Knight conversion.....now there's a can of Music Ground-related worms....

Blacksheep

Bogwhoppit said:

There are a few reliable dealers in the states selling 58, 59 LP DCs for the same amount in $ (Southworth Guitars to name one). I'd rather take the risk on Southworth and pay the import duties then the £ price in the UK - assuming the UK guitar is legit.

I bet they're not knocking out 58 or 59 Les Paul TVs for $4000. And if they are Ill have two. But you are spot on about using a reputable dealer.

IvisonGuitars

I don't know why this guitar has got me so wound up, I think it was the sellers curt reply...anyway....I posted it on MLP last night and they are having a field day with it also.

It's been pointed out that the original straight bridge stud holes have been filled and re-drilled so the bridge slants. You can make out the filled hole clearly behind the treble side stud. Crafty!

 So my initial assumption starts to hold more weight that this is a cheaper satin model trying to be passed off as an original.

Bogwhoppit

Blacksheep said:

Bogwhoppit said:

There are a few reliable dealers in the states selling 58, 59 LP DCs for the same amount in $ (Southworth Guitars to name one). I'd rather take the risk on Southworth and pay the import duties then the £ price in the UK - assuming the UK guitar is legit.

I bet they're not knocking out 58 or 59 Les Paul TVs for $4000. And if they are Ill have two. But you are spot on about using a reputable dealer.

I'd ask him. Last year he was selling 59 LP DCs for $3,695. USD

http://www.gbase.com/powered/geardetails.aspx?dealer=990fe33b-e425-460d-b2f6-7d381769706a&item=2844769

ICBM

They are really not that rare in the US - Gibson made thousands of them. They were rarely or never imported new into the UK though, so they are much rarer and hence a fair bit more valuable (even in the era of easy international shipping) here.

The same applies to all the other cheaper US-made gear, even from the big manufacturers. While professional musicians still wanted the proper high-end US stuff and were willing to pay for it, very few European players wanted student-model American guitars when they could get much high-spec European ones for less money. Why buy a Les Paul Junior when you could have a Hofner Galaxie with three pickups and a trem for the same price?

(Perhaps not answering that would be kinder to Hofner fans… )

Blacksheep

Funnily enough I did a couple of years ago when I was in the market for a Junior. Southworth's indeed had some very reasonably-priced player grade Juniors. The TVs were a fair bit more expensive.

In the end I bought a Junior from Gary Winterflood. I probably paid about £3-400 more than I would have had I got one from Southworths. But I wasn't buying blind . . . or having nightmares worrying about Parcelforce using my guitar as a football.

IvisonGuitars

Blacksheep said:

In the end I bought a Junior from Gary Winterflood. I probably paid about £3-400 more than I would have had I got one from Southworths. But I wasn't buying blind . . . or having nightmares worrying about Parcelforce using my guitar as a football.

I think buying from Gary is worth the extra, he's one of a very few UK dealers I'd be happy to give my money to and know what I was getting.

Blacksheep

 

ICBM said:

They are really not that rare in the US - Gibson made thousands of them. They were rarely or never imported new into the UK though, so they are much rarer and hence a fair bit more valuable (even in the era of easy international shipping) here.

The same applies to all the other cheaper US-made gear, even from the big manufacturers. While professional musicians still wanted the proper high-end US stuff and were willing to pay for it, very few European players wanted student-model American guitars when they could get much high-spec European ones for less money. Why buy a Les Paul Junior when you could have a Hofner Galaxie with three pickups and a trem for the same price?

 

They made thousands of Juniors. Not so the DC Les Paul TVs. Around 450 TVs in 58, I think. A few more in 59 and not so many in 60. That compares with more than 4,000 Juniors a year between 58 and 60. Hence the generally higher prices for a TV.

It's the reason I had an attack of incontinence when I initially saw a 58 TV for sale in the UK for under £4k.

 

Philly_Q

I didn't realise the TV models were so valuable and relatively rare, I'm not very clued up on the vintage market.

To be honest I think they look better in cherry....

I love that picture with them all lined up in a row.  

IvisonGuitars

Right, this is my last post on the subject.

A forum member has been sent cavity shots and was kind enough to send them to me. He might be persuaded to post the pics here....

Well, they are nicely blurred and at weird angles...

But I can clearly make out that they are modern CTS pots and with a ceramic cap - should be centralab pots and a bumblebee in there - and it's obviously been refin'd with a P90 in place, there is no paint around the P90 lugs - niiiiiice!

There is also some weird routing in the bottom of the P90 cavity.

So I stand by it being a satin model that's had an attempt to make it look like a genuine '58.

It is a Gibson but a cheaper, modern standard model and CERTAINLY NOT a genuine 1958 TV Junior. I'll put my GENUINE 1955 Junior on it.

GuitarMonkey

The seller must know it's dodgy or he'd have added the cavity shots to the listing as proof of its authenticity.

Blacksheep

Yet the seller has an impressive track record re eBay feedback, admittedly with comics. I, like miserneil, am strangely pissed off about it. Possibly because I love vintage Juniors and desperately wanted it to be genuine.

crunchman

Has anyone reported it?

GuitarMonkey

"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available."