NGD - What would you do?

jimmyguitar

I have a bit of a dilemma this morning having received a very cool guitar in the post yesterday but not quite in the condition it was described as...

It's a 1962 Epiphone Wilshire, a real one

It was described as all original and unbroken, no repairs, just a few lacquer cracks. I knew before bidding that the knobs weren't original (no biggy I thought) and that maybe the original owner had put the later mid 60's E logo on the pick guard after the foil one wore off. Also a missing 'poker chip' toggle plate and a replacement stopbar... But I overlooked this stuff because these parts are readily available although expensive.

Anyway, it arrived yesterday and my initial reaction was a good one.. Looks very cool, lovely dark Brazilian board, lacquer checking.... Bet it sounds awesome

But the heel looked a little dark.. A heel crack repair... It's really hard to photograph but here's my best attempt in broad daylight

And it appears the back of the neck was given a light overspray as there are small blobs of lacquer on the edges of the board


Here's the dilemma though... It cost me £2000 including shipping from Italy. These guitars in excellent original order seem to have asking prices of £3.5k+ and they only made a few hundred of them so they're bloomin rare.

It plays extremely well, faultlessly in fact. I'm sure it sounds excellent cracked through an amp (not checked yet, too early in the morning) as the pickups and harness are original and untouched and I've heard early 60's P90's before!

SUMMARY:

Bad:
heel repair (very well done)
Overspray to neck and neck join
Replaced stoptail, knobs and maybe pickguard (doesn't look like celluloid to me but I could be wrong)

Good:
Plays great
Looks stunning
Original body and headstock finish
Original tuners, p90's, harness
No routing or other mods

So did I buy it for a fair price? Should I kick off and demand my money back or did I get a lot of vintage players guitar for less than a reissue LP?

ICBM

If they really do go for £3.5K in all-original condition, keep it if you like the way it plays and sounds.

It may be worth taking it up with the seller and seeing if you can get a small partial refund - you do have a fair amount of leverage since if they descried it as unbroken, that can clearly be shown to be untrue just from that one picture - but it's already a good price if they refuse.

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

If they really do go for £3.5K in all-original condition, keep it if you like the way it plays and sounds.

It may be worth taking it up with the seller and seeing if you can get a small partial refund - you do have a fair amount of leverage since if they descried it as unbroken, that can clearly be shown to be untrue just from that one picture - but it's already a good price if they refuse.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I'd definitely ask for some money back, as you didn't receive the item you believed you were buying, but I wouldn't send it back if I loved it

jimmyguitar

Seller has just offered me 5% refund (€140). Not really sure that makes up for the blatant misrepresentation but I'll consider it. I just tried it through an amp and it sounds excellent, really snarly.

horse

If you had tried it out in a shop for £2200, would you have offered them £2k for it? If so definitely keep it, but see if they'll give you a discount.

Philly_Q

jimmyguitar said:

Seller has just offered me 5% refund (€140). Not really sure that makes up for the blatant misrepresentation but I'll consider it. I just tried it through an amp and it sounds excellent, really snarly.

I think the partial refund is the way to go - but maybe you can haggle for a bit more?  Depends how much you really want to keep it.

ICBM

jimmyguitar said:

Seller has just offered me 5% refund (€140). Not really sure that makes up for the blatant misrepresentation but I'll consider it.

Better than nothing but not really enough, I'd maybe ask for 20 to 25% since that seems to be about the going 'devaluation rate' for a repaired headstock on a Gibson - or at least let him know that's the case rather than asking for it outright. If he offers 10% or better, I wouldn't push it any further or he may just refuse.

At the end of the day if he just sys no I'd probably just accept it. Broken neck joints are common on these, and at least the good news is that if the worst happens at some point in the future, it won't devalue it any more.

streethawk

I'd want more than 5% off personally, he knows he's taken the mickey with his description...

Gotta say though - it looks V tasty. 

chrisj1602

Offering you 5% is admitting he's lied. I'd definitely keep it though, just get haggling for a bit more.

jimmyguitar

"I started buying and selling electric guitars far in '78, when I was very young (as you, if I well understood), and I've played probably more than 200 Gibson, Guild and Gretsch (these are my favourite brands). I experienced a lot about the possible issues of a vintage axe and I learned a lot from the luthiers that I asked for repairs or changes or some else over last 37 years.
Still my position is that this instruments does not have had any "real repairs" because neck and headstock has never broken or cracked, but finishing fixing only on the painting and lacquer as collectors usually accept on a 52 years old guitars with no loss of value.

You probably already know that the market value is 3100 to 3900 USD (2800 to 3500 EUR) as fixed on The Official Vintage Guitar Price Guide , 2015 edition, page 61 (http://www.vintageguitar.com/price-guide/). So you paid a bit less than the minimum (2713 EUR + shipment).

After that, I prefer to lose some money but to gain a guitar friend and I offer to you 5% refund (140 EUR) as per friendship due to the fact you are not fully satisfied. Same situation happened to me many times, and always I negotiated some adjustment (buying a guitar "from remote" always mean some risk).

Then, if you are a player I'm sure you will appreciate that this guitar plays perfectly; if you are a collector or a trader you can put it immediately for sale (I received many contacts in a 3 days only auction !) and for sure you will sale in a very brief time.

Else you can choose the legal way, and I'll must do the same"

He still denies its a break, he says it's a cosmetic touch-up.

TonyR

Can't say I've seen one of those before, looks cool. 

I'd personally try to get more than 5% back though, more like at least 10%, easy for me to say I know but worth giving a go.

IvisonGuitars

stickyfiddle said:

ICBM said:

If they really do go for £3.5K in all-original condition, keep it if you like the way it plays and sounds.

It may be worth taking it up with the seller and seeing if you can get a small partial refund - you do have a fair amount of leverage since if they descried it as unbroken, that can clearly be shown to be untrue just from that one picture - but it's already a good price if they refuse.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I'd definitely ask for some money back, as you didn't receive the item you believed you were buying, but I wouldn't send it back if I loved it

I'm with these 2 gents and 5% does seem a little low. I'd be up for the haggle personally.

Cool as f*ck guitar though! I've been gassing for an Epiphone Coronet for years, a really rare Dwight (Steve Marriott) model came up last year but I didn't go for it - trust issues with the seller - still kick myself about that one.

Dinosauria

You paid what you were comfortable with for the guitar as described. The description was false. I'd say work out the cost of all the replacement parts plus the devaluation because of the damage, then lower that by a third and that should be your discount rate. You shoild be getting about 20% for it in that condition.

I say lower it by a third as that's how much less than market value you paid. Also if you bought this on eBay and end up keeping it, make sure you tell him that your feedback will include the facts about the matter. If he's selling vintage gear that should make him pay attention.

I'd also prepare your statement to Paypal and send him a copy of it (including his 5% refund offer) Once he sees this in black and white he'll cave. Also point out the fact that if you return this and he resells he will have to include ALL the faults in his description and that he's likely to sell it for considerably less.

MrBump

Yes, a quick offer of a post sale discount does sound like they new they were taking the piss with the description.  Another vote for 10/15% refund.

underdog

Nice guitar, I'd look at getting 15% back, and only that little because you're happy with it, really he knew there were issues and decided to leave those details out.

GuitarMonkey

"No repairs" means just that.

Saying that "I've been ripped off in the past so you should expect to be" doesn't really cut it.

Chalky

Just be prepared for him to say No. If he does, what will you say? I think folks are concentrating too much on the 'unfair deal' aspect. I'd focus on the 'do I want this particular guitar?' Remember the alternative is you may end up spending more on an unrepaired guitar that doesn't play anywhere near as well

Grumpyrocker

underdog said:

Nice guitar, I'd look at getting 15% back, and only that little because you're happy with it, really he knew there were issues and decided to leave those details out.

I agree with this.

Gagaryn

I recognise its disappointing that you only discovered these issues when you got the guitar. But I suppose you need to ask yourself two questions, are you thinking of selling it on in the foreseeable future, in which case you may take an unexpected hit, and if not is it worth what you paid for it to you, taking into account how it plays and sounds - and its coolness factor. You already know it would be difficult to get a better example at a similar price, maybe you've realised that 50 year old guitars aren't for you, almost all will have similar issues.

Dinosauria

The point here is that the seller blatantly lied though. He should be taxed for that alone.

usedtobe

I'm torn. A blatantly dishonest description would make me want to send it back, as I really dislike dealing with liars and cheats, and avoid it where possible. But if its worth what you paid, regardless of the description, you might want to keep it, and if he's offered a partial, all the better. I could only say, for certain, if it was my money, and the guitar was in my hands, though.