Line 6 Helix

kjdowd

BintyTwanger77 said:

Before I leap into buying the Helix, I want to be absolutely sure...

I have a board of pedals I absolutely love and a fantastic amp which gives me amazing tone.

I want now and again to be able to practice without disturbing any future housemates with my ambient shoegazey nonsense...

I want variety, versatility, ease of use, fantastic effects (mainly reverbs and delays) and practicality...

Should I definitely be going for the Helix? Or is there something like amp/cab simulator (like a Mesa CabClone) I can plug my existing board and headphones into?

I know the Helix is magnificent, I just want to be sure.

I've got small(ish) kids and I gig so silent home practice that is close to gig sound/experience is important to me and I've gone through a lot of permutations to get to a reasonable solution. Factors for me are:

1. Silent practice has to mean silent! Headphones - not a quiet amp.
2. I don't have my kit out and set up all the time, so rapid set up is important. 
3. It has to sound good and be as close to what I want to play live as possible. 

On this basis, I've tried the following options:

1. Computer Based (DAW + NI Guitar Rig) - OK sounds, very flexible, bit of a faff and didn't really like the interface. Not close to live at all. 
2. Amp + pedals + reactive load and cab sim (various amps (inc Suhr Corso, Victory V40, Suhr Badger 35) plus load/cab sim (CabClone and some Palmer stuff) - Good sound, very flexible and true to live sound/experience. Lot of faff in getting amp plus pedals plus reactive load/headphones and so on setup.
3. Home practice amp with headphone out (Yamaha THR10) - V good sound, quick setup. Not that flexible, Not close to live setup. 
4. Vox amp headphones - No. Just No.
5. Helix (with third party IRs) - Great sounds, quick setup, very flexible and exactly the same as live sound/experience.

As far as the time spent practising, Helix outdid the others by a distance. Also, I found myself digging into the effects and possibilities a lot more with the Helix because it is very easy to do and very easy to save your various attempts.

As said in other threads, I'm no Helix fanboy - currently trialling the AX8 against it as I think that the fractal sounds have the edge. But is is a fantastic bit of kit and great for home practice.

Cabicular

You can feed your existing setup into a torpedo reload and then into a PC with IRs (I do that for recording with some off my high end amps)
i absolutley guarantee that you (the listener) would not be able to tell the difference between the real amps and the Helix
if you are just looking to tame down your existing setup there are cheaper ways to do it ... But the Helix is so much more than than that
when you are chaining 4 different delays out to two seperate amps and controlling the tremelo rate between them with the exp pedal ... Then you'll get it !

Teetonetal

I also have a torpedo load. It sits in a helix loop when I use it.

Something to check before you go thar route; can you unplug your speaker from the amp on your combo? My cub 12 and singleman 35 you cannot.  So load box is not a good option for those. 

I spend 95% of my time using helix. The loadbox only comes out when I want to record my amp with its specific sounds.

For home practice and recording helix is ideal. Whether or not you like it's sounds is another question that we can't answer. It's good enough for me. 

If you go loadbox route make sure it's reactive. Way better than resistive.

Teetonetal

Something else... getting helix to sound good through headphones is a mission. I'm still not 100% happy. 

Getting a loadbox to sound nice? Dead easy.

Another option if you already have an audio interface why nit try sgear? 15 day demo available. The fender and marshall inspired amps are very very good.

Finally if you do go helix, spend time getting the cabs to work. IRs are really not required and that's just another time consuming rabbit hole to go down.  

sweepy

I never did get a decent sound on headphones, no matter what I did or which headphones I used

johnonguitar

sweepy said:

I never did get a decent sound on headphones, no matter what I did or which headphones I used

I found v2.0 cured my headphone harshness

Teetonetal

johnonguitar said:

sweepy said:

I never did get a decent sound on headphones, no matter what I did or which headphones I used

I found v2.0 cured my headphone harshness

I found no change... but not been able to try any 300ohm cans yet.

Sporky

Unorthodox said:

Need to get some decent IRs

I think that's become a bit of a mantra, more than an actual necessity. I downloaded some of the free Ownhammer ones, set up a patch that A/Bd them against the closest cabs in the Helix, matched the levels to within 0.1dB using some test kit from work, and then tried one against the other blind (bit of paper over the screen so I couldn't see which was live, one footswitch toggling between them).

They all sounded fine. Neither was clearly better than the other, and the tonal differences were minor. For me, at least, it's not worth the expense and faff of using 3rd party IRs, the internal cabs do the job just as well. You may well find differently, but the most important thing is to AB them at the exact same levels, otherwise the louder one always sounds better, even if it's just louder by 0.5dB.

BintyTwanger77 said:

Before I leap into buying the Helix, I want to be absolutely sure...

I have a board of pedals I absolutely love and a fantastic amp which gives me amazing tone.

I want now and again to be able to practice without disturbing any future housemates with my ambient shoegazey nonsense...

I want variety, versatility, ease of use, fantastic effects (mainly reverbs and delays) and practicality...

Should I definitely be going for the Helix? Or is there something like amp/cab simulator (like a Mesa CabClone) I can plug my existing board and headphones into?

I know the Helix is magnificent, I just want to be sure.

It's hard to answer this sort of question for other people. I personally think the Helix delays are pretty great, the reverbs are fine. If you're really into reverb then the Helix's may be a bit bread-and-butter, but remember that you can use the parallel paths and mix settings to create more complex sounds from the blocks you have (fer example, splitting high and low frequencies to two paths and putting different reverb/delay on each). And it has four loops that you can put other stuff into, and there have already been firmware updates that add to and improve the effects.

In most regards it's more flexible than any stompbox-based pedalboard - you can build a patch with eight tremolos. You can have the same dirt effect before and after a wah or phaser, and use a footswitch to toggle between them. The snapshots let you move every knob on every effect instantly, and it's all in one box with a fantastic user interface.

If you can, have a play with one first and see how easy it is to build the sorts of sounds you like.

Drew_TNBD

The advantage you get with IR's is you can make your own, and get YOUR sound.

Sporky

Drew_fx said:

The advantage you get with IR's is you can make your own, and get YOUR sound.

I'm not dismissing IRs, just the idea that you have to use 3rd party ones. How many people really make their own, versus how many buy them in?

johnonguitar

I can't begin to imagine the depths of the rabbit of hole of making your own IR.

i bought some Marshall cab ones and some deluxe reverb ones and used he first one that didn't sound shit, forgot which ones they were when I upgraded and settled on the next first one I found that didn't sound shit

v2.0 a a lot of the stock sounds a very good too. But whatever, gets me back to playing guitar quicker

guitarfishbay

The IR is the absolute MOST important part of the sound.  I think the people who downplay the importance of IRs usually haven't come from as much of a recording interested/focused background.  I'm not trying to be rude about it, just explaining from my point of view.  Yes you can get a good sound if the unit comes with good IRs.  But additional IRs can have a huge amount of value (and are these days are arguably better value than buying the cab yourself, given the good packs contain so many different mics many won't own etc)

In simple terms any good valve amp should sound good in the room.  But getting a good mic'd up sound is a totally different skill that takes time and effort to develop.  There are so many factors involved, just throwing up an SM57 on a cab should sound OK but to get it to sound great will take careful positioning of not only the mic, but the cabinet in the room itself.  In addition to that if you're recording then you're trying to fit a sound into a mix of other instruments.  

Also, IRs made by someone else are made blind and they don't know what you're trying to achieve - what guitar and amp/model you're using, but not only that - what drum kit, bass tone, keys/synth/other instruments + vocals are going with it.

Yes I think there's a rabbit hole to go down if you start guitar tone first.  But if you've got drums down, and know what kind of bass and vocals are going down too, it will cut your variables considerably.  Then having a range of similar IRs makes your job way easier.  Yes you can EQ two similar IRs to a similar end result - but if IR no1 is too bright and IR no2 is just slightly smoother then you'd usually get a better result starting with a sound that needs less processing to get where you need to go.

Teetonetal

Drew_fx said:

The advantage you get with IR's is you can make your own, and get YOUR sound.

You can. But given the shitty recording equipment I have, it's not worth it.
That said, I'm thankful for the IR loader as putting it on an acoustic is wonderful and it0s nice to have options!

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

Drew_fx said:

The advantage you get with IR's is you can make your own, and get YOUR sound.

You can. But given the shitty recording equipment I have, it's not worth it.

I have ok recording equipment and honestly Ownhammer's Mesa 2x12 cab pack sounds better than I can get from my own favourite cab (I've got 2 of them).  He's got nicer gear, more mics, a lot more experience, very likely a much nicer room, and has already made 603 IRs of the cab.  $15 for that is a bargain IMO.  I was intending to make my own IRs of my own cab but found I got the sounds I needed really quickly using that pack, so I didn't.

Cabicular

guitarfishbay said:

The IR is the absolute MOST important part of the sound.  I think the people who downplay the importance of IRs usually haven't come from as much of a recording interested/focused background.  I'm not trying to be rude about it, just explaining from my point of view.  Yes you can get a good sound if the unit comes with good IRs.  But additional IRs can have a huge amount of value (and are these days are arguably better value than buying the cab yourself, given the good packs contain so many different mics many won't own etc)

In simple terms any good valve amp should sound good in the room.  But getting a good mic'd up sound is a totally different skill that takes time and effort to develop.  There are so many factors involved, just throwing up an SM57 on a cab should sound OK but to get it to sound great will take careful positioning of not only the mic, but the cabinet in the room itself.  In addition to that if you're recording then you're trying to fit a sound into a mix of other instruments.  

Also, IRs made by someone else are made blind and they don't know what you're trying to achieve - what guitar and amp/model you're using, but not only that - what drum kit, bass tone, keys/synth/other instruments + vocals are going with it.

Yes I think there's a rabbit hole to go down if you start guitar tone first.  But if you've got drums down, and know what kind of bass and vocals are going down too, it will cut your variables considerably.  Then having a range of similar IRs makes your job way easier.  Yes you can EQ two similar IRs to a similar end result - but if IR no1 is too bright and IR no2 is just slightly smoother then you'd usually get a better result starting with a sound that needs less processing to get where you need to go.

I kind of half agree with that. Just for background I've worked\recorded in studios for nearly 30 years now. My home set up is based around SSL Alpha Madi boxes breaking out into a couple of X-Desks with a Nucleus control surface. My preamp rack is a mixture of Trident SSL and the ubiquitous Neve 1073. Mics are the usual mixture of Neumanns Shures AKGs and a Manley Reference Cardioid I rebuilt from scratch after finding it in a garage sale.
In other words I don't know everything but I'm not a noob either
I agree that IRs are important for the recorded sound (in the same way that the right cab is important for your live sound) but lets not forget the Helix in built cabs are IRs in their own right (and good ones too). I think the reason people instantly reach for the ownhammer or 3rd party cabs is that they aren't prepared to spend the time getting the inbuilt ones to work

I mean you have nearly 10 different mic choices alone and they all sound dramtically different.

For me the Helix is a live tool so the IRs have to be as good as an sm57 on a celestion
For recording I'm a bit mopre particular but I've said before I would challenge any punter to spot the real amp from the modelled amp in a recording scenario

Sporky

guitarfishbay said:

I think the people who downplay the importance of IRs usually haven't come from as much of a recording interested/focused background.

I downplay the importance of 3rd party IRs because I come from a professional audio installation background, and have a lot of experience of setting up proper blind tests for customers, colleagues and manufacturers. And for myself, of course. When I did a properly set up blind test I came to the conclusion that the oft-repeated mantra of "3rd party IRs sound better" isn't universally true.

I'm curious as to how many of the people who insist 3rd party IRs are essential have conducted proper testing to remove any bias or expectation, including getting the level difference to less than 0.1dB with appropriately accurate test kit. My guess is very, very few.

I don't have any objection to people using 3rd party IRs, nor to there being people making them and selling them. It is quite possible that other people are more sensitive to the differences. I just think that the "you must use 3rd party IRs" thing is repeated without sufficient evidence to support the claim.

guitarfishbay

Cabicular said:

guitarfishbay said:

The IR is the absolute MOST important part of the sound.  I think the people who downplay the importance of IRs usually haven't come from as much of a recording interested/focused background.  I'm not trying to be rude about it, just explaining from my point of view.  Yes you can get a good sound if the unit comes with good IRs.  But additional IRs can have a huge amount of value (and are these days are arguably better value than buying the cab yourself, given the good packs contain so many different mics many won't own etc)

In simple terms any good valve amp should sound good in the room.  But getting a good mic'd up sound is a totally different skill that takes time and effort to develop.  There are so many factors involved, just throwing up an SM57 on a cab should sound OK but to get it to sound great will take careful positioning of not only the mic, but the cabinet in the room itself.  In addition to that if you're recording then you're trying to fit a sound into a mix of other instruments.  

Also, IRs made by someone else are made blind and they don't know what you're trying to achieve - what guitar and amp/model you're using, but not only that - what drum kit, bass tone, keys/synth/other instruments + vocals are going with it.

Yes I think there's a rabbit hole to go down if you start guitar tone first.  But if you've got drums down, and know what kind of bass and vocals are going down too, it will cut your variables considerably.  Then having a range of similar IRs makes your job way easier.  Yes you can EQ two similar IRs to a similar end result - but if IR no1 is too bright and IR no2 is just slightly smoother then you'd usually get a better result starting with a sound that needs less processing to get where you need to go.

I kind of half agree with that. Just for background I've worked\recorded in studios for nearly 30 years now. My home set up is based around SSL Alpha Madi boxes breaking out into a couple of X-Desks with a Nucleus control surface. My preamp rack is a mixture of Trident SSL and the ubiquitous Neve 1073. Mics are the usual mixture of Neumanns Shures AKGs and a Manley Reference Cardioid I rebuilt from scratch after finding it in a garage sale.
In other words I don't know everything but I'm not a noob either
I agree that IRs are important for the recorded sound (in the same way that the right cab is important for your live sound) but lets not forget the Helix in built cabs are IRs in their own right (and good ones too). I think the reason people instantly reach for the ownhammer or 3rd party cabs is that they aren't prepared to spend the time getting the inbuilt ones to work

I mean you have nearly 10 different mic choices alone and they all sound dramtically different.

For me the Helix is a live tool so the IRs have to be as good as an sm57 on a celestion
For recording I'm a bit mopre particular but I've said before I would challenge any punter to spot the real amp from the modelled amp in a recording scenario

For full disclosure I haven't tried a Helix, so my comments are purely based on the discussion regarding the value of IRs.  So I'm not familiar with what is in the Helix but in general as a workflow I prefer to have a lot of different shades of the same colour (e.g. a lot of IRs from the same cab I know I want to use) than a lot of different colours entirely (e.g. smaller amounts of IRs from a cab but more different cabs).  

IMO you shouldn't have to work hard to get an IR to work, if it sounds miles off with highpass/low pass filters then it is likely the wrong IR - in a recording situation given time and the necessary equipment you'd be trying a different mic position or mic, so I treat IRs like that... if one doesn't work quickly then I flick to the next (again why I prefer a large number of IRs from the same cab).


Re: the Helix,  Drew sent me some recordings with the Helix and his valve amps with a reactive load and I couldn't get it right, I picked the Helix out some times but also thought some Helix clips were an amp.
Interestingly after he told me the results I did find one consistent difference... a resonance on a particular chord was more pronounced in the real amps.  The Helix clips sounded more mix ready with less of a big resonance on that particular chord... I have no idea why that would be but IIRC it was consistent accross his two amps and a large number of Helix models.  I think it'd have been easier to get certain Helix models to fit the mix in that particular scenario. 

Teetonetal

There is a difference between the importance of cab modelling and the importance of 3rd party IRs. What ever tech helix uses, and I have no idea if it's IR based or not, you can get some great results. Internet wisdom seem to be 3rd party IRs are required for Helix, which for me really isn't true. I'm really happy with the results I have from the internal cabs.

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:
I'm really happy with the results I have from the internal cabs.

Honestly that is all that matters.

Unorthodox

Well IRs for cabs aside, I've setup an acoustic patch using the Variax models and a Taylor 814 IR, sounds fantastic.