Line 6 Helix

thomasw88

stickyfiddle said:

thomasw88 said:

Argh.. I’m spending hours tweaking this bloody thing at home.  Used it at 4 band practices and at best it’s sounded ok into the front of a clean amp. It sounds shit though the pa, fizzy, harsh  or just uninspiring. 

 I’ve tried various things, currently got path 2b going to xlr only with a separate amp and cab block ( tried various amp blocks,  cabs, ir’s) and it’s all been the same).  Path 2a has no amp/cab going into front of proper amp via 1/4 out.  I’ve tried various eq tweaks as per you tube, output gain doesn’t look too hot,  tried compressors etc and none of them make the pa sound better.  Sounds ok in my house going into my rcf708 speaker, and into the front of a hotrod deluxe, but then through our rehearsal pa it and peavey studio pro ( set to clean), it’s just not as good as my normal pedalboard.

I think I struggle a bit with the drive blocks in the helix. They all sound digital and a bit mid honky
.

anyone up for a bit of preset swapping/ critiquing? As this is starting to piss me off..

A few questions: 
- what sounds are you trying to achieve?
- are you setting up patches at gig volume and then tweaking them through the PA rather than home speakers? 

The best way with anything being DIed is going to be to set it up and full volume and tweak EQs there & then, especially stuff like high cut. Part of this is because human ears work differently at high volumes than low ones, so however perfect you think you have it at home it will sound different at full chat. 

Also worth a proper look at @JohnCordy on YouTube - he never fails to make it sound great in any context. 

I'm literally trying to get a cleanish amp with a choice of about 3-5 drives to ranging from an always on klon with 0 gain to a meaty rat sound.  Few delays and then I've set up some snapshots with modulation effects ie chorus , flanger , tremolo etc 

Problem being that as I'm trying to have  a real amp path and foh path ,I can't use a dirty amp in the helix without affecting the delays/ modulations as I run out of DSP .

I'll share my preset and ir I'm using if anyone is interested.

Bidley

Sounds like you're overcomplicating things. I'd use the amp or PA, not both.

But in any case, try and play with the mics in the cab block, they have a massive effect. The 57 is really toppy and almost unusable on its own, and something like the 121 is way too dark, but if you combine the two in a dual cab block they sound great. That's where I'd look if high cuts aren't doing the job.

You've been saying pretty consistently how much you dislike the Helix for a while, so I'm confused as to why you're using one again?

thomasw88

Bidley said:

Sounds like you're overcomplicating things. I'd use the amp or PA, not both.

But in any case, try and play with the mics in the cab block, they have a massive effect. The 57 is really toppy and almost unusable on its own, and something like the 121 is way too dark, but if you combine the two in a dual cab block they sound great. That's where I'd look if high cuts aren't doing the job.

You've been saying pretty consistently how much you dislike the Helix for a while, so I'm confused as to why you're using one again?

I'd be happy to use a real amp in the main but ive got a bunch of shows in the summer where it's not really suitable to take an amp, and I'm not sure of what backline will be provided.  Hence wanting to have the helix or something else similar to use.   I've had my pedal board crap out on me (dodgy cables) on a couple of gigs and that's a real pita to fix so again the helix has some appeal.

I do like it. It's very easy to use, I'm just really struggling with how it sounds in the house v in a band situation.  I've downloaded a bunch of popular presets from the tone central and haven't liked any of them. Seem far too artificial , over the top, and soaked in reverb etc.  all of the vids seem to be presets that sound great in the house but not suitable for gigging from what Ive seen.

Bidley

Thing is with using other people's patches, is if you don't like something about it, you have to unpick a lot of what's already going on to figure what the cause of the issue is. Best to start with an amp/cab, get that working then go from there.

What mics are you using in your cab blocks? I had no end of trouble with fizzy top end until I combined the 57 and 121. Best of both worlds. Set them both to between the cap and the edge, and adjust from there. Then add high/low cut of 10khz and 80hz (if needed) and go from there.

Is there a reason you don't want to combine both paths, then split your path to a send block at the end before your amp and cab?

thomasw88

Bidley said:

Thing is with using other people's patches, is if you don't like something about it, you have to unpick a lot of what's already going on to figure what the cause of the issue is. Best to start with an amp/cab, get that working then go from there.

What mics are you using in your cab blocks? I had no end of trouble with fizzy top end until I combined the 57 and 121. Best of both worlds. Set them both to between the cap and the edge, and adjust from there. Then add high/low cut of 10khz and 80hz (if needed) and go from there.

Is there a reason you don't want to combine both paths, then split your path to a send block at the end before your amp and cab?

I'm hoiked  over to a couple of IR's for now, although i will try the combo you mention . Thanks for that.

With regards to path, Ive got a clean amp (princess) and ir with a bunch of eq/compressor, and high low cut (which I can experiment with at rehearsal) 2b goes to xlr.  2a goes off to 1/4 inch jack.

Bidley

You seem to have a lot of EQ going on in your FOH send. That says to me that the IR isn't working for you.

Do you know what mic(s) your IR is using? I had a lightbulb moment when I saw that mine was using a 57 and a similarly toppy mic combined. Sounded great at bedroom level, but at volume it had way too much high end.

I had to sit down and play with the stock cabs and switch the mics out to figure out the 'signature' of each one. The cab was pretty easy to choose, as they're all pretty different, but the mics are what make or break them at volume.

Deft

I'd also recommend trying the stock cabs. Since the revamp they are on par with IRs but you can also fiddle with mics, no need for EQ blocks

stickyfiddle

Yeah that looks Waayyyyy Overcomplicated for what you’re trying to achieve (why 3x EQs and comp AND IR?!) 

I’d start on the bottom row with an amp, reverb and cab and nothing else. And don’t be afraid to experiment with different amp & cab combinations. If you’re already finding things fizzy then the Princeton won’t help. Try a Deluxe or Twin. Likewise try a bigger cab. I love Deluxe Reverbs in the real world but almost always use the Blue 2x12 when recording 

But honestly you should be able to achieve what you want without the extra EQ, compression and IR. 

And as noted above - make sure you setting this up with the PA at proper volume. 

Deft

The new Bassman model also does the Fender thing very well. If you want a starting point try John Cordy's settings, you can either grab them from this video or throw him a few £ for the preset. Pretty much ended my Helix amp fiddling:

thomasw88

Thanks, there's a lot of good info there.

The three eqs aren't really doing much.  Two are  as per Jason saddites videos.  One is for high /low cuts , which he suggested was a bit more effective than the cuts on the cab/ir . The other one is for boosting and cutting above  and below 650khz again which he suggested really helps.  The third is a tilt which I haven't actually really used in anger, but  was going to experiment with as i thought could be useful. 

The compressor again was as per Jason's videos

Noted about the cabs etc. I'll definitely try with that. Interesting point about the Princeton amp as well,  I've tried with some of the marshall preamps which seemed   quite clean and a bit darker than the fenders,  but wasn't really happy with them either in a band situation.

As for the suggestions for setting up a patch at full volume, I did try that after a rehearsal and it sounded fine alone but not great next rehearsal.  None of the bands I play with really are going to be keen with  me constantly fiddling with settings etc whilst we practice as we tend to have quite short focussed rehearsals. so it's quite hard to do that in real life. 

Do you guys find that once you set up a sound it works well in most venues or needs a tweak per gig.?  How does that work if you're using lots of presets/snapshots?  I guess that's done via global eq? 

Bidley

thomasw88 said:

The three eqs aren't really doing much.  Two are  as per Jason saddites videos.  One is for high /low cuts , which he suggested was a bit more effective than the cuts on the cab/ir . The other one is for boosting and cutting above  and below 650khz again which he suggested really helps.  The third is a tilt which I haven't actually really used in anger, but  was going to experiment with as i thought could be useful. 

The compressor again was as per Jason's videos

Ah I see. Those should be after the amp/cab then I think? But try it without them at all. I used JS's template and found I didn't need the comp or the shelf.

thomasw88 said:

Do you guys find that once you set up a sound it works well in most venues or needs a tweak per gig.?  How does that work if you're using lots of presets/snapshots?  I guess that's done via global eq?

I've never had to tweak for gigs after I'm set, but then I'm all FOH with IEMs (or wedges in a pinch). I don't know if the sound guy has had to make adjustments for FOH. I usually make a few adjustments at rehearsal for band context at volume, but then I resist the urge to fiddle when I'm at home going through monitors.

Lewy

thomasw88 said:

As for the suggestions for setting up a patch at full volume, I did try that after a rehearsal and it sounded fine alone but not great next rehearsal.  None of the bands I play with really are going to be keen with  me constantly fiddling with settings etc whilst we practice as we tend to have quite short focussed rehearsals. so it's quite hard to do that in real life. 

Maybe book yourself into a rehearsal studio, just you and your rig, to work it through at volume then. 

Musicwolf

thomasw88 said:

  I've tried with some of the marshall preamps

Are you using preamps rather than amps in the patch?  (I guess that given the number of delays which you have, plus the IR, then you must be using preamps due to DSP limits).  I'd try building a simple patch, get the basic tone which you like, and grow from there.

Amps, not preamps

Stock cabs rather than IRs (the cabs were improved greatly an update or two back so no need for IRs).  Experiment with mic position and EQ high and low cuts until you get something that you like, and stick with it.  I have just 2 cabs which cover the entire set list for two bands, and I could probably manage quite happily with one.

Start with just one delay.  If you need to have different delay settings within the same patch, then use Snapshots to change parameters.

thomasw88

Musicwolf said:

thomasw88 said:

  I've tried with some of the marshall preamps

Are you using preamps rather than amps in the patch?  (I guess that given the number of delays which you have, plus the IR, then you must be using preamps due to DSP limits).  I'd try building a simple patch, get the basic tone which you like, and grow from there.

Amps, not preamps

Stock cabs rather than IRs (the cabs were improved greatly an update or two back so no need for IRs).  Experiment with mic position and EQ high and low cuts until you get something that you like, and stick with it.  I have just 2 cabs which cover the entire set list for two bands, and I could probably manage quite happily with one.

Start with just one delay.  If you need to have different delay settings within the same patch, then use Snapshots to change parameters.

On that preset I did manage to squeeze in the full amp.
 I'm a delay nut, on my pedal board I use the dd500 alot., the helix delays are growing on me, but this was going to be my main generic preset so did want a few options. I could probably remove one ( slap back) and use one of the others to cover that so will try that. 

What 2 cabs do you use and with what amps? 

thomasw88

Bidley said:

thomasw88 said:

The three eqs aren't really doing much.  Two are  as per Jason saddites videos.  One is for high /low cuts , which he suggested was a bit more effective than the cuts on the cab/ir . The other one is for boosting and cutting above  and below 650khz again which he suggested really helps.  The third is a tilt which I haven't actually really used in anger, but  was going to experiment with as i thought could be useful. 

The compressor again was as per Jason's videos

Ah I see. Those should be after the amp/cab then I think? But try it without them at all. I used JS's template and found I didn't need the comp or the shelf.

thomasw88 said:

Do you guys find that once you set up a sound it works well in most venues or needs a tweak per gig.?  How does that work if you're using lots of presets/snapshots?  I guess that's done via global eq?

I've never had to tweak for gigs after I'm set, but then I'm all FOH with IEMs (or wedges in a pinch). I don't know if the sound guy has had to make adjustments for FOH. I usually make a few adjustments at rehearsal for band context at volume, but then I resist the urge to fiddle when I'm at home going through monitors.

I've tried various places for them, and in reality they're there as placeholders for quick tweaking but useful to know you don't tend to need them. I'll take em off as I did run out of DSP.