The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

Watching Scarlets v Edinburgh highlights the vast chasm between NZ and the rest of us, especially in the North.

Hadleigh Parkes and Regan King are head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of ball handling, playing people into space and fundamental skills-catching high balls, taking the right option etc.

Hadleigh Parkes (kiwi) is consistently the best player on the pitch for Llanelli, and is outclassing most people today-he's basically a 28 year old journey man who had to come over here to get a pro contract. Wil never get close to a training squad with the AB's.

Regan King (kiwi) has always been a touch of class and would have walked into any NH squad in his day (had some knee issues but still a wonderful player) and consistently oozes class in this division, to be fair he won a solitary all black cap nearly a decade ago but never managed any more (wouldn't trade that one for a hundred for any other country he has said-fair play to him).

There are dozens of player like this coming out of New Zealand every year, they're bloody freaks for producing class players.

Someone like Hadleigh Parkes is probably 10th (or further down) in line for the all black 12 jersey and he's a class act, wouldn't get into a 6N first team perhaps but wouldn't disgrace himself.

How good would Wales/Ireland/Scotland/England 10th choice IC fare....?

scrumhalf

Watching Wasps against the Queens, and leaving aside club allegiances, it pains me to see that we have SH players being so central to the team. We have two Piutaus, Halai, Smith, Hughes - they're all top-notch players.

lloyd

Shit kicking from Thomas cost Scarlets the game, I've seen 8th tier fly halves do better, seriously. Bloody awful. As an aside, looked like less than 1000 at the game at Murrayfield today. I know the league is shit and its 6N weekend but no more than 1000 fans in Edinburgh is a shame, we struggle in Wales for crowds but that's a pretty terrible effort.

koneguitarist

@gassage @lloyd I feel the six nations has lost quality in its quest for size and power, George Ford is an example that it does not need to be that way, I would love to see Mathew Morgan given at least a bench spot, certainly above Gareth Anscombe as he has shown more in Welsh shirt than Anscombe and also offers more cover. Wing Full back and fly half. Yet can he is deemed too small.

But you look at what the beasts showed up and it was all about the hits, the defensive plays and poor thinking and poor individual skills. 

I thought it was just Wales who were bad, but this year it seems being able to pass in front of player to run onto has gone the way of the straight feed!

Gassage

@koneguitarist

Taff, as we chatted today, if Eng keep on picking that midfield, then they are attacking space with quick feet, which is great news (for everyone).

I'll be interested to see if Manu comes back in, and also how Daly will fit in. I really like the idea of Daly at 12 with JJ.

Just re-watching the games now for my report.

Think you've a gem in the making with Rob Evans

koneguitarist

@gassage, will look forward to your report, I am no expert on scrums (is anyone) but he looks good around the field as well, put himself about quite a bit, and also squad seems to like him as well by all reports. 

 Think England V Wales could be the game of the six nations, but a reversal of yesteryear, with English flair V Welsh power! 

lloyd

Mathew Morgan has been playing championship rugby and showed that he's a turnstile in defence at international rugby. You can't reward someone for choosing to play a division below by giving him more caps. He can run and is a great broken field runner but would you trust him in the defensive line versus any team? I wouldn't. hes not deemed too small, he's deemed too shit at tackling, he needs to go away and work his balls off like Shane Williams did and then see where he's at in a year or two. He was bloody awful in the WC couple of nice breaks but he doesn't/can't pass and his kicking was wayward. Anscombe is not the answer either to be fair but Gatland has spent a lot of WRU money and time to get him over here, he did so as he didn't fancy Biggar who has shown him up in that respect. I'm kind of torn as I remember (as I'm sure you do) Wales being destroyed by England, France and the SH teams as we could not compete physically. That trend has now gone and we are at least competitive. I honestly think we're a couple of ball carriers in the forwards and a bit of footballing ability in the backs away from being a decent side. As a tiny country I'm not sure we can expect to have it all. I'd prefer the current results/style of play than a return to the 90's and early 2000's I'd like a bit more flair too but I'm not sure this crop have it in them, and from what I can see the guys behind don't have it either. It's all very well blaming the backs for the lack of attack but we don't set up well up front as we don't have powerful (forwards) runners (hence JR being used to breach the gain line so often) we don't attack the fringes (because we have no runners that can), have no tail lineout option-which creates decent attacking platform, can't set up a maul (to an international standard) to create mismatches by sucking in defenders and until recently had a mainly retreating scrum. Shane Williams would make a difference but I'm not sure MM would, Shane Williams being one of the best players to ever pull on a rugby shirt, IRB world player of the year, record try scorer etc. MM will never reach those heights.

fretmeister

Rumours from Saints is that Bath have poached Kahn Fotuali'i.

That will be annoying, he's getting on a bit but head and shoulders above Boxkick Dicko.

koneguitarist

Sorry @lloyd not sure I agree with you ref defence, certainly no worse that 6'6" Cuthbert. And I think Morgan will be back in Regional rugby next season anyway.

I agree we need power but not at the total expense of skill and reading the game.

koneguitarist

He is small, like Shane Williams was when he started, before he bulked up. But I would quite happily put him on wing instead of Cuthbert because he offers so much more in attack and other skills, we have become so defence focuses we do not know how to see the space and attack the space, we are taught to power into players to draw more players in, but we do that and the ball dies with the attack each time. 

Can you honestly see Roberts making a pass like that at speed, actually can you see Roberts making a pass? 

lloyd

In the World Cup he was terrible in defence, which is where he needs to be judged. I'm not talking tackling as the only requirement, he was out of position a lot and due to his size and technique he is babysat in the line that is he goes to full back a lot. I'm not sure that's what I want in an international. Personally I don't like him at 10 as his game management is poor and I feel he's selfish-his first question is is it on for me, very like G Davies in that regard, who despite his excellence with ball in hand, is a pretty average scrum half. I get what you say re Cuthbert, he's terrible right now, Norths defence has been suspect too. But those two guys ceilings are higher, so can understand Gatland including them-particularly with his gameplan and love/need for size. I'm glad he's going back to regional rugby-I'll actually watch him play, but you must admit running in tries in the second tier is not great prep for a 6N campaign? I have to admit I've not seen him play this season but if you are not at the top tier of a league, you shouldn't be anywhere near the international team. If he plays well at the Blues then by all means pick him, but not this year for me. In an ideal world the back 3 is North 1/2p and Williams, then we have Proestland covering FB and FH which covers most eventualities with North covering OC etc etc We then have Cuthbert and James in the wings waiting and playing when injuries and form dictate.

lloyd

I agree about power and skill needing to be balanced but not sure we have that in our main line back line. You can't drop Biggar, JR, JD, North, Williams or 1/2p from the back line when fit. Biggar is class but offers not threat ball in hand, JR is JR, JD is amazing but needs to be put into space, he does not offload or pass. 1/2p is fast but not what you'd call a creative player. North can do it on his day. Williams is our most dangerous runner behind North but runs into defences and generally fails to offload to teammates. Like I say the big problem lies with the platform, it doesn't allow the back line the space to do the creative stuff we crave.

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

He is small, like Shane Williams was when he started, before he bulked up. But I would quite happily put him on wing instead of Cuthbert because he offers so much more in attack and other skills, we have become so defence focuses we do not know how to see the space and attack the space, we are taught to power into players to draw more players in, but we do that and the ball dies with the attack each time. 

Can you honestly see Roberts making a pass like that at speed, actually can you see Roberts making a pass? 

Comparing Roberts and Morgan is a non starter, they are different players who play in different positions. I'd take Tom James over Morgan all day, you've posted a video of Morgan 2 years ago.....he's been playing in the second tier of England so on that basis alone I reject him, the step up would be too much IMO. Do you really think throwing Morgan on the wing would make us any more exciting to watch? The tactics are to power in to men to draw people in because there is no space to run into, you can't magic it up at this level. That comes from the above facets I've described-maul, scrum, fringe runners, a blindside flanker who can carry, a 10 that keeps the defence on their toes, rear lineout ball, solid scrum.....we do not have those elements to our game, therefore it is left to our giant backs to create go-forward. I agree that the gameplan is limited and Roberts is one dimensional (we do need him though) and that cuthbert is shit, I just don't see the answer being MM

scrumhalf

Meanwhile, over at Wasps, Dai Young's boy Thomas is very impressive.

lloyd

scrumhalf said:

Meanwhile, over at Wasps, Dai Young's boy Thomas is very impressive.

How's Bradley Davies been getting along?

koneguitarist

@lloyd, space is at a premium on a rugby field due to size of players and defensive nature of game, one way is to constantly turn opposition players by putting ball behind, with chips or grubber kicks in like JD2 does, but one other way it can be done is sheer pace and seeing the gap.

England did it to us at MS last year, and will do it again this year. I am not talking changing our whole philosophy regarding team, but we can accommodate a player that can tear holes in teams by pace alone.

Tom James is not an international standard winger in anyone's view. I dismissed him the first time I saw Duncan Jones as only defender, show him the outside and still put him in touch. If a winger in a one on one cannot get past a prop then he ain't fit to get on the field. 

Morgan can be bulked up a bit, he will never be a 13 stone power house, but he can certainly have his defence improved. 

Everyone thought Shane was too small, including 6' plus guys like Ben Cohen and Matt Banahan, but he either went past them or stopped them. 

scrumhalf

lloyd said:

scrumhalf said:

Meanwhile, over at Wasps, Dai Young's boy Thomas is very impressive.

How's Bradley Davies been getting along?

Big Bad Brad is doing well. As is Bradley Davis, on our coaching staff. What with Davis, Davies, two Piatau brothers and Young senior and junior it could get confusing.

lloyd

Space on the field has nothing to do with the size of the players come on....that's ridiculous. It has everything to do with defensive systems and fitness. That then creates the defensive nature. Defending is easier to teach than attack-it takes less talent to get right, so less talented teams like us up North can defend but them down south can unpick even the northern defences-the WC has plenty of examples of this. You seem to be ignoring all my comments re how space is created in the first place, which then allows players to exploit. We do not do any of those things well so there are less gaps. Tom James is not the answer no, but he's probably 4th/5th choice winger, so with injuries he gets in. Do I need to say MM has played at the second tier so does not get in for me again? You dismiss size as important for your winger then go on to say MM can be bulked up? He's a stone lighter than Shane was, and Shane is one of the best rugby players to ever grace a field....that gives him a bit of edge over MM. 13 stone and power house is not pro rugby terminology these days.....Bannahan is a second row in all but name, so not sure why a journey man pro is being mentioned in this debate? Yeah he got some caps but come on...I'm not even sure Shane ever played him? Putting MM in on the wing would totally change our philosophy. Would you have had him on the bench this 6N or are you talking next year? I'll be very happy to be proved wrong if he pulls trees out at Pro12 level but personally his performance in the WC combined with the fact that he's played at OH in the second tier of English rugby this year is enough for me not to see him as the answer to our lack of attacking flair this year...

lloyd

scrumhalf said:

lloyd said:

scrumhalf said:

Meanwhile, over at Wasps, Dai Young's boy Thomas is very impressive.

How's Bradley Davies been getting along?

Big Bad Brad is doing well. As is Bradley Davis, on our coaching staff. What with Davis, Davies, two Piatau brothers and Young senior and junior it could get confusing.

Lol, good to hear, I rate him and good for us to have competition at lock, not a traditionally strong area for Wales but fairly happy with the current crop. Not great lineout operators though.

koneguitarist

Hi @lloyd, firstly Shane has played Banhan, Wales V England before 2011 World Cup.

Shane got bumped off quite a few tackles in his early days, got bumped off some in his later days, but the tries he scored offset that. 

I believe Morgan can offer same sort of threat, not saying he is ever gonna be a huge defender, but the game of rugby is not just about defence, you have to score points too. 

Look at how poor our attack is becoming, it's predictable, slow and barring lucky bounces for George North, our tries are in short supply. 

This is not just about opposition defence but our attack is too slow, big guys cannot react as quick as small guys, and often by the time our 9's stop, look and think about where to pass the space is closed up again and chance is lost. Morgan on that video is playing for Ospreys in pro 12, he is older, still only 23 and probably better coached under Andy Robinson than at Ospreys. Blues coach Danny Wilson who worked with him at Bristol wants him back. So I think he will start tearing up the Pro 12 pretty damn soon, if the Blues can offer some parity in set piece so he is not on defensive duties all match!