The Rugby Union Thread

koneguitarist

Certainly ain't gonna do worse than what we have on the field at moment. We don't have speed, we don't have vision or we don't have attitude to take it to them, apart from Liam Williams that is. And everyone hated Liam Williams, and mocked me when I said he is a far better full back than Halfpenny. 

Roberts is too slow for 13 but not skilfull enough for a 12, Biggar is great 10 behind a big pack, but when we are matched in pack he can only kick ball away. Players picked for a specific game plan, that they can't Enforce. 

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

Certainly ain't gonna do worse than what we have on the field at moment. We don't have speed, we don't have vision or we don't have attitude to take it to them, apart from Liam Williams that is. And everyone hated Liam Williams, and mocked me when I said he is a far better full back than Halfpenny. 

Roberts is too slow for 13 but not skilfull enough for a 12, Biggar is great 10 behind a big pack, but when we are matched in pack he can only kick ball away. Players picked for a specific game plan, that they can't Enforce. 

Who mocked? I think at the time 1/2p was better, and I at least said if Williams worked on his game, he'd be pushing for a spot. He's improved drastically in the last 12-18 months, the biggest improvement being cutting out the cheap shots. The best back 3 is still 1/2p, North and Williams, now I'd put Williams at 15 if I'm honest. Henson is done mate, he really is. Great player no doubt but times moved on. If you drop Roberts, you lose one of your only ball carriers as the pack is lacking them. I like Scott Williams and thought he would be worth a go at 12 but he got the chance against the Chiefs and he was dog shit-probably the worst player on the park for me-do you reward him with a start in the next game? The main issue I see with us is lack of set piece and ball carriers in the pack-it all comes from there, without them we have to use backs to get go forward ball-ie Roberts and North. If we had a ball that was coming back quickly against retreating defences then elusive runners would be great, but you can't expect players to find gaps that aren't there....

lloyd

I'd also add that in fairness to 1/2p that he's been out for a long time and in that time Williams has been superb, but we don't know how good 1/2p would have been. 1/2p to wing when he returns though.

lloyd

Positives: Liam Williams-superb tour. Faletau-proved he's one of the best in the World. Record points difference -14 in NZ Negatives: Far too many to mention, but, lineout and tackling have been noticably terrible, expect lineout to be shit but tackling is regressing. Zero depth. Warbuton has been pretty poor as a captain IMO and it should (a long time ago) have gone to AWJ. He's too nice for me-needs to get in the refs ear more.

lloyd

Superb from England, never looked like losing that game. Thought Owens was terrible today though, missed a lot.

scrumhalf

Emglish whitewash - does exactly what it says on the tin.

tbm

The RSA IRL match will be a step to far for us. No Payne or Henshaw. Boks to lead for the whole game and pull away in the final 20.

Fretwired

Great England game ... two years before they face the All Blacks ... this shows the importance of having a good manager. Jones has earned his money.

koneguitarist

This is what the rest of the home nations feared, and probably SH too, England with a top quality coach to use the superb resources that you have. Congratulations on the series win, fully deserved, and it wasn't that Australia was bad either.

The worry is now for Wales and where do they go from here. We have been beating poorly coached English sides, and on a par generally with remaining NH sides, winning and losing, but our honeymoon period is over. Game has moved on and we are being left behind again. 

Gatland is a good coach no doubt but the coaching staff of Edwards, Howley and McBryde should have been replaced. 

I feel the League style defences have been worked out and are stale as is our attacking play which has gotten worse with successive seasons. Players are sticking rigidly to a plan which is not working. 

We can blame players, for not being good enough or our depth of resources too small, but coaching throughout Wales and regions is not good enough. 

koneguitarist

tbm said:

The RSA IRL match will be a step to far for us. No Payne or Henshaw. Boks to lead for the whole game and pull away in the final 20.

At least you have been competitive.

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

This is what the rest of the home nations feared, and probably SH too, England with a top quality coach to use the superb resources that you have. Congratulations on the series win, fully deserved, and it wasn't that Australia was bad either.

The worry is now for Wales and where do they go from here. We have been beating poorly coached English sides, and on a par generally with remaining NH sides, winning and losing, but our honeymoon period is over. Game has moved on and we are being left behind again. 

Gatland is a good coach no doubt but the coaching staff of Edwards, Howley and McBryde should have been replaced. 

I feel the League style defences have been worked out and are stale as is our attacking play which has gotten worse with successive seasons. Players are sticking rigidly to a plan which is not working. 

We can blame players, for not being good enough or our depth of resources too small, but coaching throughout Wales and regions is not good enough. 

Pretty much spot on this. I don't think that players are pushed enough through the age grades and become complacent, which can and has affected development. A big killer in Wales is lack of competition which is compounded by Gatlands selection policy-you can play bloody awful but will continue to be picked regardless, often this is down to the drop off in talent but sometimes it's just stupidity. Wales on the whole can expect to field 8-10 class players and 7-5 who are simply not good enough, when they play out of their skins, well test the better teams but no more. We're coming out of a great generation of players, but the cupboard is bare behind them and some are aging. Who replaces AWJ and Charteris? We've still not replaced our Lions front row, though Lee and Evans look like they could become world class one day.

koneguitarist

lloyd said:

koneguitarist said:

Certainly ain't gonna do worse than what we have on the field at moment. We don't have speed, we don't have vision or we don't have attitude to take it to them, apart from Liam Williams that is. And everyone hated Liam Williams, and mocked me when I said he is a far better full back than Halfpenny. 

Roberts is too slow for 13 but not skilfull enough for a 12, Biggar is great 10 behind a big pack, but when we are matched in pack he can only kick ball away. Players picked for a specific game plan, that they can't Enforce. 

Who mocked? I think at the time 1/2p was better, and I at least said if Williams worked on his game, he'd be pushing for a spot. He's improved drastically in the last 12-18 months, the biggest improvement being cutting out the cheap shots. The best back 3 is still 1/2p, North and Williams, now I'd put Williams at 15 if I'm honest. Henson is done mate, he really is. Great player no doubt but times moved on. If you drop Roberts, you lose one of your only ball carriers as the pack is lacking them. I like Scott Williams and thought he would be worth a go at 12 but he got the chance against the Chiefs and he was dog shit-probably the worst player on the park for me-do you reward him with a start in the next game? The main issue I see with us is lack of set piece and ball carriers in the pack-it all comes from there, without them we have to use backs to get go forward ball-ie Roberts and North. If we had a ball that was coming back quickly against retreating defences then elusive runners would be great, but you can't expect players to find gaps that aren't there....

You create gaps yourself, NZ was doing it off first phase set piece due to ball skill and speed. We have gone for size over skill, now we are as big and strong as SH players, yet our actual skills have deserted us. 

Roberts is part of the reason our backs don't work, which is why Liam Williams is working so hard. Roberts and Davies was lauded as best defensive centre combination, yet it's tries that win games these days. 

England showed how to beat Wales with pace in six nations last year, then luckily for us, went back to brawn in RWC. Our game plan is finished and Biggar, Roberts and Davies could be the casualties instead of the coaches. 

eSully

Ireland leading 10-3 and a cracking try by Marshall. congrats to England and commiseration to wales. Missed both games as was travelling.

Exciting evening ahead with the Welsh football, lets see if Ireland can join England in winning their test series and then the U20's final at 7, can't wait

peteri

Thing that struck me about the Wales game - the All Blacks took the tries very well, and executed very, very well - as you'd expect

But the Welsh defence was just awful, schoolboy stuff - for example the try by the hooker - great line for sure, but the defence hadn't numbered up - if you watch the replay he was hardly hiding!

I can't believe how far Wales have fallen so quickly, sure they're tired (they look knackered) but when you look how England have performed after the same length season - how can the Welsh coaches not be under threat?

snakemanStoo

England teams not done too badly today. 

eSully

eSully said:

I was dipping in and out of the game so missed big chunks but all considered, for a pre-tour 'friendly'. I thought the intensity wasn't too bad. I enjoyed what I watched. Comfortable win for England in the end and impressively so. Not to jinx them but I genuinely think they'll have a good tour to Australia, maybe 3 out of 3  :-O

I should have put on a bet - England should go unbeaten for the year I think, Fiji, SA and Aus for the AI's. If you can beat Aus 3 times away at the end of a long season then you can beat them at home. On what I saw of the SA team against Ireland on tour I would expect England will beat them too.

As for the U20's, it was men against boys. I think the Irish U20's can hold their head proud, beating the Jnr All Blacks, getting to the final and putting in a decent second half but I expected a comfortable England win after watching how they dismantled the BabyBoks in the Semifinal. I think quiet a few of the England team had premiership experience whereas I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong @tbm) any of the Irish lads had Pro12 experience. Great showing by the NH all the same. Future looks good.

tbm

@eSully Stockdale has played for Ulster a few times. That's it though. Thought England were really excellent. Aggressive line speed and smart decision making. Between the u20s and the whitewash in Austrailia the rugby world, BNZ included, should be worried.

eSully

tbm said:

@eSully Stockdale has played for Ulster a few times. That's it though. Thought England were really excellent. Aggressive line speed and smart decision making. Between the u20s and the whitewash in Austrailia the rugby world, BNZ included, should be worried.

Aggressive line speed, vicious counter rucking and a dominant scrum. When you consider that was the same Ireland scrum that destroyed Argentina's in the Semi it was very impressive indeed. I'd love it if England were playing the All Blacks this year. That would be a very tight game on what we've witnessed in the last month. Bodes well for the Lions tour also

eSully

As a Munster Rugby fan ... ouch

Gassage

I'm awaiting the Chilcott Report with anticipation. I wasn't aware Cooch could actually write.