Any Motörbike riders here?

MrDazzle

Sequential boxes just don't lend themselves to block changes though!  It's a practical limitation of how they're constructed more than anything...hence why slipper clutches were invented pretty much, bang it down four gears and drop the lever.

I use the gears to slow down quite a lot just 'cause I can, I often used to do the 50 mile commute to work and see if I could not brake for the whole journey and it's relatively easy.

I wonder how the guidance will change with EV bikes, those have very strong engine braking when you regen.  I can't remember which brand it is, but one of them had a thing where you twist the throttle the 'wrong' way to ramp up the regen braking.

manicguitarist

TheBigDipper said:

I'm only qualified to talk about riding on public roads, but with that in mind...

If rolling the throttle off gets you down to the speed you want, you then need to decide if that's still the right gear for accelerating away again, or if you need to change down. If the next gear down is now the correct gear and you're already at the correct speed for it, then fine, just change down. But what if you're not? 

"Brakes to slow, gears to go".  The Roadcraft-based suggestion (and the DVSA suggestion for learners) is be to use your brakes to get the bike down to the speed you want and then directly select the gear that matches your road speed. What's known as "block changing". It makes the bike stay stable under constant braking and the rear wheel won't lock up due to speed differentials when you feed the clutch out in the correct gear for your speed. 

If you use sequential gear changing when slowing down, there's always a small period of time where the engine is not driving (or slowing) the rear wheel and the weight, tyre grip and steering characteristics are different. And then it gets upset again by the engine reconnecting with the rear wheel. You can mitigate that a bit by keeping the brakes on, but that technique isn't as efficient as "first brakes then block change". 

Yeah - I agree what you're saying - for the road. But if "making progress" or on track - especially when using a quick shifter, you know you are going to slow down - so you drop 2 or 3 gears quickly - and that can (or could previously) lock the rear wheel due to the much higher back torque

TheBigDipper

manicguitarist said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip myself>

Yeah - I agree what you're saying - for the road. But if "making progress" or on track - especially when using a quick shifter, you know you are going to slow down - so you drop 2 or 3 gears quickly - and that can (or could previously) lock the rear wheel due to the much higher back torque

Sure. It's why I only restrict my comments to road riding. That's where I ride and what I teach (only to full license holders at RoSPA Advanced level these days, my DVSA days are long gone). 

One of the preconceptions I continue to meet and try and undo, is people reading articles in magazines about racing techniques, and trying to apply them to the public roads - where they can often be dangerous to use because the context and the risk if you fail is different. 

FWIW, one of the biggest misconceptions about advanced road riding I come across is that people think "making progress" is the best sign of competence. It isn't. It's identifying situations where trying to make progress is likely to get you killed and deciding to give it a miss until the next safer opportunity comes along. 

Kittyfrisk

MrDazzle said:

Sequential boxes just don't lend themselves to block changes though!  It's a practical limitation of how they're constructed more than anything...hence why slipper clutches were invented pretty much, bang it down four gears and drop the lever.

I use the gears to slow down quite a lot just 'cause I can, I often used to do the 50 mile commute to work and see if I could not brake for the whole journey and it's relatively easy.

I wonder how the guidance will change with EV bikes, those have very strong engine braking when you regen.  I can't remember which brand it is, but one of them had a thing where you twist the throttle the 'wrong' way to ramp up the regen braking.

As my driving instructor used to point out, 'brakes are much easier to replace than gearboxes' 

MrDazzle

Yeah people seem funny about engine braking and gearboxes, but the gearbox doesn't care that much about which direction it's driving torque in....

manicguitarist

TheBigDipper said:

manicguitarist said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip myself>

Yeah - I agree what you're saying - for the road. But if "making progress" or on track - especially when using a quick shifter, you know you are going to slow down - so you drop 2 or 3 gears quickly - and that can (or could previously) lock the rear wheel due to the much higher back torque

Sure. It's why I only restrict my comments to road riding. That's where I ride and what I teach (only to full license holders at RoSPA Advanced level these days, my DVSA days are long gone). 

One of the preconceptions I continue to meet and try and undo, is people reading articles in magazines about racing techniques, and trying to apply them to the public roads - where they can often be dangerous to use because the context and the risk if you fail is different. 

FWIW, one of the biggest misconceptions about advanced road riding I come across is that people think "making progress" is the best sign of competence. It isn't. It's identifying situations where trying to make progress is likely to get you killed and deciding to give it a miss until the next safer opportunity comes along. 

FWIW, I am an IAM observer and RoSPA gold rider. 

Corvus

AK99 said:

Can I ask - what's behind the silver panel in the frame above the engine - is that the air-filter inlet ?

Yes, it is that. Might have to spray 'em darker, there's smart aftermarket CF ones but it's ££s I can dodge.

The motor's a pushrod V based on the Warrior lump. Haven't read any issues with throttle taper so far but I could see that praps from anyone used to i4's or parallel twins etc, it'd be a fair culture shock.

Basically it's alright at low speeds, the fuelling is spot on for instance. Although it has way more max torque than the evo, the evo gives a sharper slap if you're not smooth at very low trundles.
But still, don't think I'd want to commute in lots of slow-speed traffic, other things are easier to live with for that.

Sun's out, off for a ride. Then have a look at the plastic shite at the rear end, at least chop some back if not whip the lot off and go tail tidy.

TheBigDipper

manicguitarist said:

<snip>

One of the preconceptions I continue to meet and try and undo, is people reading articles in magazines about racing techniques, and trying to apply them to the public roads - where they can often be dangerous to use because the context and the risk if you fail is different. 

FWIW, one of the biggest misconceptions about advanced road riding I come across is that people think "making progress" is the best sign of competence. It isn't. It's identifying situations where trying to make progress is likely to get you killed and deciding to give it a miss until the next safer opportunity comes along. 

FWIW, I am an IAM observer and RoSPA gold rider. 

Great! If it came across that my comment above was for you, then I'd like to make it clear it wasn't. Perhaps I could have made that clearer. Your sensible post just gave me the push to say something extra for people who think they should take on significantly extra risk just to "make progress" without appreciating that the advanced action is just to let it go. 

My early IAM days (we're talking the '90s) were full of people - including me at the time - who thought declining an overtake instead of taking it at extra risk was the wrong thing to do. "Progress" was everything. Times change, and so do people... :-) 

Haych

A guy I know did RoSPA a while ago and he said that the instructors (all ex-police riders) were constantly in his ear pushing him to "go-go-go", make that pass, take any opportunity to get down the road quicker. 

I had wondered if attitudes might have changed.

AK99

Corvus said:

AK99 said:

Can I ask - what's behind the silver panel in the frame above the engine - is that the air-filter inlet ?

Yes, it is that. Might have to spray 'em darker, there's smart aftermarket CF ones but it's ££s I can dodge.
Then have a look at the plastic shite at the rear end, at least chop some back if not whip the lot off and go tail tidy.

Yeah, I think if you darken down the air-filter cover and the one between the barrels it would look better.

There's a lot of different materials and finishes going on on that side of the bike, so would need a bit of thought to get the colour and finish right.

Afaik you can get pretty high-quality different coloured carbon-fibre wrap finishes for components these days, for not a whole lt of cost. Might be worth a perusal to see if there's anything that would suit the big MT ?

(As we all know, these things are absolutely critical to get right ..:))

sinbaadi

TheBigDipper said:

manicguitarist said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip myself>

Yeah - I agree what you're saying - for the road. But if "making progress" or on track - especially when using a quick shifter, you know you are going to slow down - so you drop 2 or 3 gears quickly - and that can (or could previously) lock the rear wheel due to the much higher back torque

Sure. It's why I only restrict my comments to road riding. That's where I ride and what I teach (only to full license holders at RoSPA Advanced level these days, my DVSA days are long gone). 

One of the preconceptions I continue to meet and try and undo, is people reading articles in magazines about racing techniques, and trying to apply them to the public roads - where they can often be dangerous to use because the context and the risk if you fail is different. 

FWIW, one of the biggest misconceptions about advanced road riding I come across is that people think "making progress" is the best sign of competence. It isn't. It's identifying situations where trying to make progress is likely to get you killed and deciding to give it a miss until the next safer opportunity comes along. 

I don't like block changing on the road either.  

Let's say you are doing 80mph in 6th and want to slow down for a roundabout, down to, say 30mph.

The advice by the "advanced" lot is to use the brakes to slow all the way down to 30 whilst still in 6th and then drop down to 3rd.  To me this is nuts with a sequential gearbox.  You're going to be disengaging drive for the period in which you're selecting 3rd, a much longer time than any of the individual downshifts would have been.  And then you have to rev match otherwise you'll lurch your way back up to 4k rpm, but unlike sequential individual changes between the ratios 6,5,4,3 there's no rhythm to it.  Plus you're doing this when you have reached your speed for entering the roundabout, so the chances are that you're turning one way or the other at this point whereas I would have been in 3rd gear way before tipping it in.  

I think the IAM stuff is totally weird for cars and bikes and also highly elitist and pretentious.

Dominic

I agree with you ,I have never ridden like that even on track ......the freewheeling thing just leaves me feeling out of control ;the only time I've done it is where I've messed up and realised I'm on the wrong line or going into a corner too deep and it becomes the panic default accompanied with held breath and squinting eys .....followed by a sigh and shaky legs !
I feel best set-up and most attuned when it's been a really well judged and well tuned decelleration through the box which is especially easy with a good quickshift and rev balancer .......the Superduke R is so smooth at this ......I rode a BMW S1000R and it was nowhere near as smooth on the way down the box.
Not applicable on the road but ,on track ,keeping the brakes cool and fade free ready for the outbrake 2 turns ahead at the end of the straight  makes a huge difference.

manicguitarist

Haych said:

A guy I know did RoSPA a while ago and he said that the instructors (all ex-police riders) were constantly in his ear pushing him to "go-go-go", make that pass, take any opportunity to get down the road quicker. 

I had wondered if attitudes might have changed.

On my last RoSPA evaluation, the tester was a bit of a tool. He gave me a lecture for riding what is “essentially a race bike” on the road. It was on my RVF400. 

He then went onto to mark me down for changing gear too much. He had plainly never ridden a sports 400 with a power band maybe 3000rpm wide….

MrDazzle

Dominic said:

I agree with you ,I have never ridden like that even on track ......the freewheeling thing just leaves me feeling out of control ;the only time I've done it is where I've messed up and realised I'm on the wrong line or going into a corner too deep and it becomes the panic default accompanied with held breath and squinting eys .....followed by a sigh and shaky legs !
I feel best set-up and most attuned when it's been a really well judged and well tuned decelleration through the box which is especially easy with a good quickshift and rev balancer .......the Superduke R is so smooth at this ......I rode a BMW S1000R and it was nowhere near as smooth on the way down the box.
Not applicable on the road but ,on track ,keeping the brakes cool and fade free ready for the outbrake 2 turns ahead at the end of the straight  makes a huge difference.

I like getting the downshifts smooth and continuous manually anyway, it's part of the fun.  Doing anything else just feels wrong to me!  

On my auld Bonnie (1969) you MUST do continuous downshifts and blips as you go, if you tried to block change all at once at the ends you'd just be hunting around the gearbox forever trying to find a gear to put it in.

TheBigDipper

manicguitarist said:

Haych said:

A guy I know did RoSPA a while ago and he said that the instructors (all ex-police riders) were constantly in his ear pushing him to "go-go-go", make that pass, take any opportunity to get down the road quicker. 

I had wondered if attitudes might have changed.

On my last RoSPA evaluation, the tester was a bit of a tool. He gave me a lecture for riding what is “essentially a race bike” on the road. It was on my RVF400. 

He then went onto to mark me down for changing gear too much. He had plainly never ridden a sports 400 with a power band maybe 3000rpm wide….

The bike you use for a test is none of his business. He can't have minded the amount of time you used the gearbox that much, though, coz you got a Gold anyway, didn't you? :-) Maybe he was scrabbling for comments to show he'd added value to what was a perfect ride? I'd have been miffed, too, in your shoes. I used to have a mate with an RVF400. Following him round Essex back roads was a revelation - he never slowed down for bends and was always keeping the engine spinning in its sweet spot. My RG500 had more engine grunt than his RVF400 did. 

Examiners can be odd. My first ever RoSPA test (after several years as an IAM Observer) was interesting. I left the 916 at home (Termigioni exhaust, so illegal) and took my R1150GS. The examiner turned up on a Fireblade with an illegal can, a yellow headlight and wearing an iridium visor. Not quite what I expected from a serving Essex motorcyclist... Never had a test experience like that since. 

TheBigDipper

MrDazzle said:

<snip>

I like getting the downshifts smooth and continuous manually anyway, it's part of the fun.  Doing anything else just feels wrong to me!  

On my auld Bonnie (1969) you MUST do continuous downshifts and blips as you go, if you tried to block change all at once at the ends you'd just be hunting around the gearbox forever trying to find a gear to put it in.

Of course you must. It's appropriate a lot of the time. Especially on an old bike with brakes that fade in hard use. If you plan ahead and get the gear changes and throttle blips right, then there's nothing wrong with changing gear sequentially. And like you say, getting it right is fun.