24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

koneguitarist

But isn't it all about majority wins, not minority?

koneguitarist

Let's move on and make plans to go forward not back and fore with arguments as everyone loses.

WezV

koneguitarist;1125094" said:

Let's move on and make plans to go forward not back and fore with arguments as everyone loses.

I agree with that. The country is too divided to carry on like this

Ianpdq

koneguitarist said:

But isn't it all about majority wins, not minority?

This is oh so true are we sure this petition is not started by the people who will lose there penshions from the EU

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

We had a decision with a good turn out of voters, end of story. How about we keep having a vote until you get the "right" vote that you want? Is that democracy ?

If 50.001% of the electorate had voted Leave, I would be happy with that.

koneguitarist said:

But isn't it all about majority wins, not minority?

As it is the largest minority gets to impose its will on the majority. That is *not* democracy.

57Deluxe

Nothing happens in isolation: We could've staved off this referendum if Tony Blair's lot had given us one that was promised around the  Lisbon Nice Treaties, which by the way Ireland and Denmark both voted against* and were made to take it again... Then there was Labour who opened the gates to all and sundry in the idea that these would be long time Labour voters and keep them in power indefinitely (source Peter Mandleson).

Is not surprising that that all this bottled up anger spilled out - especially at a time when EU has failed on any ability to provide cohesive and incisive strategies on mass immigration and bankrupt economies.

*Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty

Sporky

thomasross20 said:

Wis to @quarky for those smug lefties telling everybody else what is best for them.

Yeah - name-calling and straw-man arguments are the foundation of any well-reasoned argument.

Calling remain voters "smug lefties" is the equivalent of calling leavers racist morons. Which, just to be clear, I am not doing.

Heartfeltdawn

TTony said:

... we were asked the wrong question.

It was a question that was so open that it lacked focus. No manifestos, no certainties, no promises, no real timetables of what would happen. I'm sure it will be the most ambiguous vote in my lifetime and any subsequent second referendum has to feature far more specifics and campaigns have to have a clear timetable for their proposals. 

In 2014, Switzerland held 12 referendums encompassing votes on abortion to gold reserves to minimum wage.

In 2016, the UK held one vote and so far has no plans on holding any further votes on the biggest shift for this country for generations, one that affects our boundaries, overseas territories in the form of Gibraltar, immigration, finance, business, and the entire union of this country. 

One public vote is simply not enough for changes of this magnitude. It should have been and now should be a multi-stage referendum process. By all means start with the In/Out question that occurred this week in order to gauge public opinion but use that as the first stage. 

guitarfishbay said:

The winning post is first person over 50% - personally I would have wished for higher than 72% turnout but everyone had their chance to vote if they so wished to do so. This is direct democracy.

I would also agree with the points raised in Tony's first post except you can act because this was a majority. It is also too late and the consequences are here now and will remain even if there is another referendum. A second Scottish referendum would likely be pushed for even if England changed its mind on the EU.

Personally I want this to be a springboard for electoral reform. We are clearly a divided nation on many areas so FPTP and single party majority governments should no longer be our goal. Getting stuff done quickly isn't always best, a majority of 4% is a majority but fully ignoring a 48% block on day to day non binary legislative changes is not acceptable and we need to ensure a fairer representation of all groups in parliament. I'd rather break up the major political parties than the UK. This referendum has quickly answered a question on Europe - look at the potential consequences, it may lead to a break up of the U.K. (though I would accept that as the will of the electorate, I personally would not like this). If we need another referendum it should be on how we vote for our MPs, and finally to reform the House of Lords in to a second elected house.

Exactly. As I've said in the main thread several times, it's bonkers for a now-successful Leave campaign to demand we pull out of the EU because it's undemocratic and old-fashioned without then addressing our own democratic failings with the archaic FPTP system. We have alternative voting systems in place for other elections. Many of us vote for a city mayor under such a system, all of us vote for a PCC similarly. 

ESchap

We've voted to leave (I didn't) but that's that.   No political party in the UK or referendum in living memory has been decided by more than about 30 odd percent of the population. Reality of our democracy is that a significant proportion take no active part in it, easier just to complain.

What really worries me is that as of October we will have the far right of the Tory party with the keys to the asylum and no effective opposition.

Those who voted leave to stick two fingers up at the political establishment may seriously rue getting what they wished for.

Chalky

The attitude of people like @TTony is appalling. Democracy is only acceptable to them when it comes up with the 'right' answer.

ourmaninthenorth

Tin Hats time folks.

The people have had their say..briefly. 

Now a cabal of right wing tories...led by IDS, Johnson, Gove, Farage, will steer this country into a country fit only for the neoliberal elite and dogs. 

Democracy, like power, bears great personal responsibility.

The fake revolt is over after a day...the true enemies of the people of this country will now reveal themselves, under a mandate we've handed to them on a fookin plate. 

Know your enemies, they're no longer knocking at the door, they're sat on your settee. 

Sporky

First time I've seen Johnson or Farage described as neoliberal.

stratosonic

I've not much to add to the well written and thought out comments here, just this..."Cue twilight zone music".... 

Picture a dark and not too distant future where we have "the Donald" and "The Boris" as world leaders, an Un-United Kingdom, a divided Europe, possible right wing presidents of France and other countries, North Korea carrying out missile tests on Japan and S Korea, ISIS obtain NBC weapons, price of a barrel of oil drops to $10???

chrispy108

I like how the person writing that petition has worded it to make it not sound like "let's try again until we get what we want".

If people were bothered about turnout and percentages they certainly did a good job of hiding it before the result came out.

ourmaninthenorth

Sporky said:

First time I've seen Johnson or Farage described as neoliberal.

You quite clearly don't understand the term. 

Ro_S

TTony said:

... I know of plenty of families where husband & wife cast opposing votes and neither can understand the other. 

I don't think husbands and wives not understanding one another is restricted to applying to Leave/Remain or politics generally (!)  lol

Maybe wife swapping could be a solution to spousal differences on Leave/Remain.

Sporky

ourmaninthenorth said:

Sporky said:

First time I've seen Johnson or Farage described as neoliberal.

You quite clearly don't understand the term. 

I do understand the term, but thank you for your ignorant and patronising reply.

Whether I understand the term or not, however, has nothing to do with whether I've seen them described that way before.

Quite clearly you didn't understand my post.

bodhi

Chalky said:

The attitude of people like @TTony is appalling. Democracy is only acceptable to them when it comes up with the 'right' answer.

Taking a plunge into the abyss might be democratic if enough people vote for it, but that doesn't make it any less reckless.  On that basis I don't think we should just stand by and allow it to happen.

I think it ended up being a protest vote which was more successful than anyone dared hope, and that it might well swing the other way if it has to happen again.  Which I sincerely hope will happen.  I'd happily look like an idiot as long as common sense prevails in the end.

If not, then let's hope for some of the Blitz spirit so everyone will pull together and make the best of a potential disaster.

Dominic

Why not ask 2 Sheep which airline they prefer to travel on ?

 The very strange dilemma is that the general population were asked to pronounce upon a subject that they simply do not have any understanding of or expertise in the issues that matter. Thinking about it rationally NO professional would advise or counsel on a matter beyond their expertise - You wouldn't expect your doctor to give Legal advice or your Accountant to prescribe medication.

  Unfortunately, the voters as a decision making body are then wholly vulnerable cannon fodder to the manipulation of sensationalised statistics from both camps topped off by being led ' ring through nose' by tabloid press sentiment designed to shepherd the masses or inflated scaremongering from the Jeremiahs of the Remain camp -the Chicken -Littles who say the sky is falling.

If Churchill could have commented on this he may well have said " Never have so many ignorants been so misled by so  little information spread by so few sources to so many "

 Of course,the soft targets that garner public support are over-egged ( Immigration ) and the boring economic Keynsian theory that would go over the heads of so many is not allowed to blur the issues considered tangible to Outraged of Eastbourne (retired ) when he collects his Daily Mail or the non-executive working man . Keep it Simple.

 I do not have a strong view either way, there will still be bread in the shops tomorrow,the sun will still rise and sometimes change can be challenging and fun .........how many people sit in loveless marriages for 30 years because they are scared of change ?

There may well be difficult implications -it certainly will not have any impact on immigration -that is a fact of the modern transitory world but to some who have seen Mrs Smith next door replaced with Mr Ali or their work-mate Phil replaced by Pavel they want to embrace a media opinion that sensationalises this as an expression of objection.They are cannon fodder for the media.

 Put Simply,the decision was effectively put in the hands of people that hadn't really got a clue,were dis-informed and were not qualified to judge - but that's democracy.

 Maybe the Sheep do have an Airline preference and maybe one man and his dog can shepherd them to Heathrow but they don't have the knowledge of how to buy the ticket !

Ianpdq