24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

camf

Looks like the neo-nazis are already taking the enthusiasm for Brexit to as their chance to crawl out of their filth to start campaigning for repatriating foreigners... Although presumably only non-white ones.

holnrew

Many of the things I've seen leave voters thought they were voting against are either to do with Westminster or simply non existent.

PolarityMan

To be honest the margin of victory is pretty meaningless to me. Even had it been 80% in favour of leave I'd still have though that the result should stand but that all those who voted leave are wrong. That's because I accept that the majority can still be wrong and that having to abide by the majority's wish is both one of the greatest strengths and biggest drawbacks of a democracy.

littlegreenman

holnrew said:

Many of the things I've seen leave voters thought they were voting against are either to do with Westminster or simply non existent.

Much truth there holn.

bodhi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

...there is talk around Westminster- in the wake of a plunging currency and falling share prices - of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then be put to a referendum further down the line...

Chalky

You do know that "talk around Westminster" means an MP or two off-record. It is the minimum level of authenticity.

chrispy108

bodhi said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

...there is talk around Westminster- in the wake of a plunging currency and falling share prices - of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then be put to a referendum further down the line...

Plunging currency and falling share prices 48 hours later? That's no time frame to make any real judgement. Just knee jerk reactions.

chrispy108

holnrew;1125711" said:

Many of the things I've seen leave voters thought they were voting against are either to do with Westminster or simply non existent.

Many of the things I've seen Remain voters thought they were voting for are either to do with the EU or simply non existent.

ThePrettyDamned

On this, I feel like deciding to stay or leave the eu is surely best left to people who really understand it, who work with it and our country.

In other words, that's what we vote our leaders in for. I feel like they have abdicated their responsibilities by letting us decide.

Now obviously there is a big issue with trusting politicians in this country. That, I feel, is part of the real problem. That, and how we have fallen into snipes and misinformation for the purposes of increasing personal power (eg most politicians).

I think, if we had a great government that was clear, transparent and strong, we wouldn't have needed a referendum in the first place.

Richardj

siremoon said:

Richardj said:

It would be interesting to now list all of the backpedalling and reasons to leave that might not have necessarily been entirely factual (being generous).

Article 50 to leave has to be invoked now.  It's what the majority in the UK, by the result, voted for.

From the news over here the EU wants the UK out asap now that their decision has been made.

Good luck.

It doesn't matter what the EU wants.  The treaty gives us the right to take as long as we like and so we should do it when we are ready and not before.  If the EU doesn't like that then it should have worded Article 50 differently when it was drawn up.  However it is what it is, it isn't going to change and we should use that fact to maximise the benefits to the UK. 

And what I don't see is why, if you don't want to be in the EU, you (general term) then want to have benefit from leaving. How does that work?

IN or OUT, it's black and white. If you think it isn't then look at the ripple effects already spreading and look at the media in the other EU countries and the opinions they have.  I think general opinion is now good riddance and don't expect an easy ride.

Do you genuinely think the other EU member states are going to sit back and say 'yeah, whatever and in your own time'. Right.

Richardj

I was listening to an interesting programme on Canadian radio (I do, OK) and they are negotiating a trade deal separate to the TTIP I think with the EU.  The UK is legally bound to it whilst they are a member but the very minute that they aren't it will have to be re negotiated. Might not seem important but let's not forget Canada's proximity to the US and the benefits of easy large scale commerce and smaller less profitable deals.

Chalky

Richardj;1125763" said:

siremoon said:



Richardj said:

It would be interesting to now list all of the backpedalling and reasons to leave that might not have necessarily been entirely factual (being generous).

Article 50 to leave has to be invoked now.  It's what the majority in the UK, by the result, voted for.

From the news over here the EU wants the UK out asap now that their decision has been made.

Good luck.





It doesn't matter what the EU wants.  The treaty gives us the right to take as long as we like and so we should do it when we are ready and not before.  If the EU doesn't like that then it should have worded Article 50 differently when it was drawn up.  However it is what it is, it isn't going to change and we should use that fact to maximise the benefits to the UK. 










And what I don't see is why, if you don't want to be in the EU, you (general term) then want to have benefit from leaving. How does that work?

IN or OUT, it's black and white. If you think it isn't then look at the ripple effects already spreading and look at the media in the other EU countries and the opinions they have.  I think general opinion is now good riddance and don't expect an easy ride.

Do you genuinely think the other EU member states are going to sit back and say 'yeah, whatever and in your own time'. Right.

You say "I think general opinion is now good riddance and don't expect an easy ride". Yet Merkel says there is no need to be nasty. I suggest her opinion counts more than most.

Richardj

And that is what is shown in the British media.

The wider picture might not be exactly the same.

PolarityMan

Richardj said:

And that is what is shown in the British media.

The wider picture might not be exactly the same.

Fairly similar representation on CNN too though.

TTony

Chalky said:

You say "I think general opinion is now good riddance and don't expect an easy ride". Yet Merkel says there is no need to be nasty. I suggest her opinion counts more than most.

Richardj said:

And that is what is shown in the British media.

The wider picture might not be exactly the same.

The British media have not been sugar-coating this at all.  It's been pretty much "impending doom with a large dose of gloom" pretty much constantly.  

But, being realistic, Germany exerts more influence in Europe than any other country.  Where it not for Germany bankrolling a number of European economies, then the EU would have fractured long ago.  And Germany has more to lose from Brexit than most other EU countries (see the impact on the DAX on Friday).  

Merkel will be focused on minimising damage to the German economy (trade deals) and "encouraging" other EU members to adopt a similarly realistic approach no matter what the hubristic nationalist politicians are proclaiming.  

Luckily, you don't have any recognised right-wing pressure group in France who could argue for a Frexit, so the French politicians and media can be wholly objective.

mellowsun

There can be no second chance here. We've blown it, there are no deals to be had. The rest of the EU wants us out ASAP , we've wasted enough of their time.

Garthy

TTony said:

The petition is here

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Sign it.

I've also accepted the invitation to contact my MP (first time in my life) to explain why we need a second attempt at this.  Not because the Y/N result was wrong in itself, but because the question was wrong, the process was pathetic, the outcome is unnecessarily divisive and insufficiently clearcut, and that you can't hope to lead a United Kingdom in a direction that 48.1% of the population thinks is wrong.

The genie is out of the bottle, and we would not be voting to leave or remain in the EU as it appeared on Wednesday 22nd June 2016. Option A has changed enormously in the last 48 hours and there is no 'undo' button. If we had a 2nd referendum and the result was reversed we would not be carrying on as normal. Junker & Tusk are furious with the British public and have said that this divorce will not be amicable and that our exit ought to start immediately.  They are both moving to make any more referendums unpalatable, they are seeking even closer political union among the other 27 states.  The UK would not be welcomed back with open arms and Junker said there would be no second chance (before the referendum).

Both campaigns were scandalous, however the voting population have absolutely no excuse, we all have the internet to educate ourselves into any of the eventual outcomes, likely financial and political fall outs both foreign and domestic.

What I find absolutely disgusting is those who could not be bothered to vote suddenly want a second chance because they don't like the result- they should have got off their arses at the time of asking.

What I find astounding are those who voted to leave have suddenly changed their mind because "they didn't know". It astounds me on multiple levels, firstly what on earth did you think would happen? Secondly it has only been 40 hours since the result was declared, we've had one hard day although America, Germany and France had a harder one. Today the £ has lost one singe cent against the dollar- not even newsworthy and although the stock exchanges are closed, FX is 24/7.

This country was never truly welcome in the EU parliment, Dominic Hills, commissioner of EU financial services was described as having a fox guard the hen house because we weren't in the Euro and not fully integrated in the European dream.

It is also telling that the founding members had an emergency meeting today to try and put the breaks on any domino effect should other countries want to leave or have the gall to have a democratic referendum to decide their own memberships. France and Germany are shitting themselves, both want the UK's exit to be respectful and painless and in the case of France they are worried that they will be pressured into having the next referendum.

I voted leave and after events of the last 40 hours I feel we've had a lucky escape.

Sporky

mellowsun said:

There can be no second chance here. We've blown it, there are no deals to be had. The rest of the EU wants us out ASAP , we've wasted enough of their time.

I think they're hurt and lashing out. Rationality will likely resume over the next week or two.

siremoon

mellowsun said:

There can be no second chance here. We've blown it, there are no deals to be had. The rest of the EU wants us out ASAP , we've wasted enough of their time.

Well they are going to be disappointed then.  The treaty binds all member states and gives rights to those states.  A member state cannot be compelled to invoke Article 50.  If it wasn't so serious I would be laughing at the hypocrosy of Juncker and his cronies wanting to break the rules they were so keen to say were unbreakable when Cameron was trying to get a better deal.  They made the ruddy rules, they can now play by them.

Richardj

@TTony, you are of course right that the French are not very right wing conservative (!) and everything is peace and light, especially after the events earlier in the year.

There is fear and suspicion everywhere and it isn't comfortable.

What I cannot understand is how the UK has appeared to bow down to whatever the EU have said and France can openly pick and choose what it wants, whatever EU rulings and law say.  Who has let that happen?

The 'Brexit' group and their victory feeds all of the right/left groups who have another agenda and try to unsettle what could, if every member actually did what they could/should do to be a strong trading community able to set strong terms against the US and China.

As with all politics, the infighting, half truths and lies only weaken and divide.