24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

Chalky

Richardj;1126062" said:

The UK isn't being expelled, it has chosen to leave.  Why then doesn't it want to leave asap?

You don't rush into a negotiation - you get all your strategies, tactics and plans ready first. That takes time.

Richardj

Drew_fx said:

Richardj said:

The UK isn't being expelled, it has chosen to leave.  Why then doesn't it want to leave asap?

It's our right to decide when. It's a long complicated process, and no-one ever said it would happen overnight. Stop rabble rousing.

@Drew_fx ,fair do's, it's late and I've been drinking reasonably priced EU wine.

Heartfeltdawn

Richardj said:But what is the point of delaying it when it has clearly been stated that the UK doesn't want to be part of the EU?  IN or OUT, not 'ah, well, lets just wait a bit'.  Will of the people and all that.

Because it was a referendum, a non-binding decision, and not a definite path. Such a decision has to go through parliament and we also don't have a Prime Minister right now to push it through. 

It's also the weekend. How fast did you think it would go through?

camf

The Leavers all seem to agree it will be by the end of the year at the latest. Even the twat UKIP MP confirmed that on the Newsnight Special earlier.

camf

Someone on the same programme was suggesting that deliberately delaying the 'shall notify' could arguably be a breach of the agreement. That's deep legal territory but I'd guess both sides will be looking at it closely. Surely if the EU decide that they don't care about ongoing relationships with England, they could just decide to force things through unanimaously and look to deal with the fallout and potential damage as quickly as they can.

What options would England have? They'd be out anywhay. Sue them? That would be some court case.

Richardj

Heartfeltdawn said:

Richardj said:But what is the point of delaying it when it has clearly been stated that the UK doesn't want to be part of the EU?  IN or OUT, not 'ah, well, lets just wait a bit'.  Will of the people and all that.

Because it was a referendum, a non-binding decision, and not a definite path. Such a decision has to go through parliament and we also don't have a Prime Minister right now to push it through. 

It's also the weekend. How fast did you think it would go through?

Absolutely agree.  Just not sure how many others know that. I'm just a bit fed up with all the people who seem to not understand what they have done or regret their decision, either way.

As you very rightly say it was just a gauge of opinion and ultimately could be simply ignored if needed.  From a certain point of view it is fascinating watching the fervour being generated by what is essentially an opinion poll. 

Chalky

camf;1126086" said:

Someone on the same programme was suggesting that deliberately delaying the 'shall notify' could arguably be a breach of the agreement. That's deep legal territory but I'd guess both sides will be looking at it closely. Surely if the EU decide that they don't care about ongoing relationships with England, they could just decide to force things through unanimaously and look to deal with the fallout and potential damage as quickly as they can.



What options would England have? They'd be out anywhay. Sue them? That would be some court case.

Only if the EU wants to break its own laws. The EU has to care - we buy too much off them. Its like running a shop and saying you don't care what your customers think. Very soon you will care.

camf

Isn't the whole point that they can make up new EU laws and England can't influence that process any more?

Chalky

camf;1126105" said:

Isn't the whole point that they can make up new EU laws and England can't influence that process any more?

Sure. But they can't make retrospective law.

Ro_S

So the EU is already bullying the UK regarding triggering the Article 50 thing.    Trying to tell us what to do.

It's further evidence of why we should leave the EU.

Who wants to be in a club of bullies?

We'll trigger Article 50 when we feel like it, thankyou, as we're entitled to.

Piss off EU.

Richardj

Ro_S said:

So the EU is already bullying the UK regarding triggering the Article 50 thing.    Trying to tell us what to do.

It's further evidence of why we should leave the EU.

Who wants to be in a club of bullies?

We'll trigger Article 50 when we feel like it, thankyou, as we're entitled to.

Piss off EU.

IN or OUT, simples.  Not when it suits you or it doesn't mean anything.

camf

Chalky said:

camf;1126105" said:

Isn't the whole point that they can make up new EU laws and England can't influence that process any more?

Sure. But they can't make retrospective law.

Maybe. But it wouldn't be the first time it's been done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

Ro_S

camf said:

Isn't the whole point that they can make up new EU laws and England can't influence that process any more?

Nope.  We're still a member of the EU.  Nothing has changed, yet.

Btw, I think you mean the UK, not England.

Ro_S

Richardj said:

Ro_S said:

So the EU is already bullying the UK regarding triggering the Article 50 thing.    Trying to tell us what to do.

It's further evidence of why we should leave the EU.

Who wants to be in a club of bullies?

We'll trigger Article 50 when we feel like it, thankyou, as we're entitled to.

Piss off EU.

IN or OUT, simples.  Not when it suits you or it doesn't mean anything.

Er, no.  A state is entitled to trigger Article 50 when it wishes.  Yes, indeed, we will be leaving the EU.  But we'll trigger Article 50 when we choose.

camf

Uh-huh. Maybe. Options might be a bit limited though. Has anyone noticed how smoochy the French government are being with Scotland and NI? They seem keen to offer the chance to remain. Suspect the Spanish might take a bit more persuading.

Heartfeltdawn

Richardj said:

Absolutely agree.  Just not sure how many others know that. I'm just a bit fed up with all the people who seem to not understand what they have done or regret their decision, either way.

As you very rightly say it was just a gauge of opinion and ultimately could be simply ignored if needed.  From a certain point of view it is fascinating watching the fervour being generated by what is essentially an opinion poll. 

It took me ages to get my head around it, just what this referendum actually was. Some good debate here persuaded me: it's a litmus test, a gauge of opinion and nothing more in terms of what is expected of me. 

For the Tories and UKIP, it's more but I am neither of those groups. 

camf

I wish I could agree with you but I think it's already gone way, way beyond that. The U.K. Had been ripped apart, England and Wales especially, The situation in Ireland looks very worrying and ironically it's Scotland that appears to be holding together best out of this massive fuck up.

Roland

We should remember that the EU is not a single entity with a single point of view. Junkers has a grudge against the UK for opposing his election. He also wants a swift exit to minimise criticism of his management. He wants political union. Many in Europe don't, as the Dutch referendum showed. Most country leaders actually want a good trading relationship with the UK because we are a very significant customer to them. Some of them are pleased to see the UK referendum outcome because it strengthens their hand in pushing for change in Europe. There's a long way to go in this yet. So far we've only lit the blue touch paper.

Heartfeltdawn

camf said:

I wish I could agree with you but I think it's already gone way, way beyond that. The U.K. Had been ripped apart, England and Wales especially, The situation in Ireland looks very worrying and ironically it's Scotland that appears to be holding together best out of this massive fuck up.

It has gone beyond that and the more I read, the more I am convinced that Leave never believed they would win and never had a real plan for what might occur if they did win. 

thomasross20

Did remain ever have a plan? Just playing devil's advocate... I don't think any side has any plan!

I find whatever one side says about the other... the same can be said in reverse lol.

Ach, I broke my rule. All this hot air isn't getting anybody anywhere, time for something productive - sleep!