24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

Heartfeltdawn

Chalky said:

Cameron's record on negotiations with the EU demonstrated he was useless so he had to go after a Leave vote.

DC was faced with this prior to the result:

-backbenchers calling for him to quit even if Remain won

-Leavers who said he's shit at negotiation then asking him to stay on as leader and to help out in the initial stages of leaving (and some of those who signed the letter then changed their mind)

So one bunch wants to kill him, the other bunch has slated him but then grovels a bit and asks him to stay on. He did the right thing by the result of the vote. He also did the right thing in not following the Leave request to stay on. It is pretty extraordinary that an opinion poll has toppled a Prime Minister and that a referendum fought partially over a lack of EU democracy is going to land us with an unelected leader for an unknown period of time. 

Heartfeltdawn

ThePrettyDamned said:

What I meant is that we, as the public, are not equipped to make this sort of tough decision - I think that is what the government is there for.

I have considered your reasons. I still think it would be interesting to find out.

But yes, from the start, I felt these big, tough decisions need a team of well informed experts to reason out.

Perhaps I'm just quite stupid - but I don't feel I know enough about the European Union and it's various influences (positive or negative) on us and Europe as a whole for me to make a fully informed decision. I feel like the referendum reflects that - had the decision gone the other way by the same margin, it would indicate much the same.

Perhaps I should not have used my vote. That may have been a better reflection on my thoughts - a "I don't know because the information supplied to me was really poor" box would have fitted me better than stay or go.

I hope we get some strong, cohesive leadership to guide us through this.

The reasons I put for non-attendence were just a small selection. You can simplify it down further: a lot of people just can't be fucked to vote. 

It was a horrible referendum. I hope there is nothing quite so shit again in my lifetime. 

Emp_Fab

I've just decided it should be called The Referendumb from now on.  

Wizzes please.  LOL's are also accepted.

Chalky

Emp_Fab;1126571" said:

I've just decided it should be called The Referendumb from now on.  

Wizzes please.  LOL's are also accepted.

Where's the tumbleweed button?

Sporky

Where does this leave the last significant decision made by the UK public, namely RSS Boaty McBoatface?

ThePrettyDamned

Heartfeltdawn;1126561" said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

What I meant is that we, as the public, are not equipped to make this sort of tough decision - I think that is what the government is there for.



I have considered your reasons. I still think it would be interesting to find out.



But yes, from the start, I felt these big, tough decisions need a team of well informed experts to reason out.



Perhaps I'm just quite stupid - but I don't feel I know enough about the European Union and it's various influences (positive or negative) on us and Europe as a whole for me to make a fully informed decision. I feel like the referendum reflects that - had the decision gone the other way by the same margin, it would indicate much the same.



Perhaps I should not have used my vote. That may have been a better reflection on my thoughts - a "I don't know because the information supplied to me was really poor" box would have fitted me better than stay or go.



I hope we get some strong, cohesive leadership to guide us through this.












The reasons I put for non-attendence were just a small selection. You can simplify it down further: a lot of people just can't be fucked to vote. 

It was a horrible referendum. I hope there is nothing quite so shit again in my lifetime. 

Absolutely. I think I'm bad at wording my thoughts, but that is a neat summary.

quarky

marantz1300 said:

I voted remain.

.....

They think the working class are idiots to be used as they please and have treated us like shit for centuries.

I think the result of the vote proves them right.

You think the working class are idiots?

Richardj

quarky said:

marantz1300 said:

I voted remain.

.....

They think the working class are idiots to be used as they please and have treated us like shit for centuries.

I think the result of the vote proves them right.

You think the working class are idiots?

The working class (is it classist referring to them like that?) are not idiots, but you do have to ask whether the decision was made in a fully informed and rational way.

There does appear to have been an awful lot of either lack of information or sheer ignorance on show in some places.

TTony

Richardj said:

There does appear to have been an awful lot of either lack of information or sheer ignorance on show in some places.

Much of that was perpetuated and/or encouraged by those speaking for the campaigns and the media.

I don't think you can blame the population for holding uninformed views when they've been deliberately misled by people who should know a whole lot better.

Heartfeltdawn

TTony said:

Much of that was perpetuated and/or encouraged by those speaking for the campaigns and the media.

I don't think you can blame the population for holding uninformed views when they've been deliberately misled by people who should know a whole lot better.

This times a squillion. 

quarky

Richardj said:

The working class (is it classist referring to them like that?) are not idiots, but you do have to ask whether the decision was made in a fully informed and rational way.

There does appear to have been an awful lot of either lack of information or sheer ignorance on show in some places.

They probably based the decision on the impact on their day-to-day lifestyle, rather than some theoretical question about global rights/wrongs. Whether they made the right decision is obviously a matter of debate, but I find some of the comments about old people, or poor people, pretty disturbing. Maybe we should just give the 20-something middle-classes two votes in these things?

ICBM

mgaw said:

Merkel will hold sway i think, i do think that the vast unravelling that will have to take place now will be viewed by some as an unparralled opportunity to "rewrite" the rule book to their advantage…

I agree.

My best guess now is that the UK will in fact leave the EU, but be given automatic entry to the EFTA without a transition. That would be seen as honouring the result of the referendum, but it will protect Germany's interests best of the available options. It will also leave us in the situation of having almost the same level of EU control but without any input into the decision-making - but that's what a lot of people think we have now (even though it's not so). Many Leavers won't be happy, but they won't be asked - no government is going to make that mistake again.

That may or may not be enough to keep Scotland in the UK. If it doesn't, it will mean that the land border will still not be an issue, any more than the border between Sweden and Norway is. The big question will be whether Scotland will then want to keep the pound and stay in the EFTA, or join the EU and adopt the Euro. I expect Northern Ireland will stay in the UK since the only real alternative is to join the Republic which no Loyalists will accept, so the same will apply to their border.

In Europe, I think the result of the UK being given a special deal against the wishes of the Eurocrats will see a shift of power away from Brussels and towards Berlin - hence ironically bringing the 'Fourth Reich' that some Eurosceptics seem to fear a step closer.

Of course I could be completely wrong… but I hope I'm not, since I think it's probably the best way out of this mess.

siremoon

ICBM said:

mgaw said:

Merkel will hold sway i think, i do think that the vast unravelling that will have to take place now will be viewed by some as an unparralled opportunity to "rewrite" the rule book to their advantage…

I agree.

My best guess now is that the UK will in fact leave the EU, but be given automatic entry to the EFTA without a transition. That would be seen as honouring the result of the referendum, but it will protect Germany's interests best of the available options. It will also leave us in the situation of having almost the same level of EU control but without any input into the decision-making - but that's what a lot of people think we have now (even though it's not so). Many Leavers won't be happy, but they won't be asked - no government is going to make that mistake again.

That may or may not be enough to keep Scotland in the UK. If it doesn't, it will mean that the land border will still not be an issue, any more than the border between Sweden and Norway is. The big question will be whether Scotland will then want to keep the pound and stay in the EFTA, or join the EU and adopt the Euro. I suspect Northern Ireland will stay in the UK since the only real alternative is to join the Republic which no Loyalists will accept, so the same will apply to their border.

In Europe, I think the result of the UK being given a special deal against the wishes of the Eurocrats will see a shift of power away from Brussels and towards Berlin - hence ironically bringing the 'Fourth Reich' that some Eurosceptics seem to fear a step closer.

Of course I could be completely wrong...

No I think something along these lines is likely too. 

Juncker and his like are acting as though the EU holds all the cards in this.  We've got a few as well and thankfully Merkel is smart enough to realise that.

johnnyurq

TTony said:

Richardj said:

There does appear to have been an awful lot of either lack of information or sheer ignorance on show in some places.

Much of that was perpetuated and/or encouraged by those speaking for the campaigns and the media.

I don't think you can blame the population for holding uninformed views when they've been deliberately misled by people who should know a whole lot better.

^^^^^^ Exactly this and both campaigns for me has made the UK look like a bunch of eejits globally as a result.

Not a great start to taking the country back and both sides have shot us all in the foot.

Hands down the most divisive and nasty voting campaign I have witnessed in my lifetime.

quarky

I think it had made the ruling class look like eejits. I am actually quite proud of the citizens for standing up and voting for what they believe in.

Moe_Zambeek

I don't think the UK looks like a bunch of idiots internationally. A democratic process took place in one of the homes of democracy. The result may have been a shock but I'm sure the peoples of Venezuela, say, or Zimbabwe, maybe even Saudi Arabia or Georgia or North Korea aren't looking at us going 'what a bunch of numpties'. I'm sure they are in fact quite envious of the power the people have here.

I bumped into a working class person the other day too, and they didn't seem particularly dim or inferior in comparison to my finely tuned intellect.

I also feel newspapers are not opinion leaders. The successful papers are successful because they tune their output to the outlook of their readership, not the other way around.

Emp_Fab

Richardj said:

quarky said:

marantz1300 said:

I voted remain.

.....

They think the working class are idiots to be used as they please and have treated us like shit for centuries.

I think the result of the vote proves them right.

You think the working class are idiots?

The working class (is it classist referring to them like that?) are not idiots...

Oh come on, I wish everyone would stop trying to be so politically correct about all of this.  The overwhelming majority of the public are morons.  Look at the sales of newspapers as a rough indicator - The Sun and the Daily Mail outsell everything else.  If you read The Sun or the Daily Mail, you're a moron.

If the Sun and Mail had sided with the remain camp, we'd have had a different outcome.  To be fair to the great unwashed, none of us really know what the fuck is going on as far as the EU is concerned, so will turn to their favourite rag to do the thinking for them.  That's how governments are elected.  "The Sun Says" column should be retitled "Plebs - do this".

I know I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, but I do think that generally this isn't that far from the truth.

marantz1300

It is the truth.

I had an agency worker working with me Thursday night that wanted to end immigration (he was Nigerian) because   " the government would then pay him higher wages".

He buys  the Sun.

capo4th

Yes that is the reason we are now facing this mess on Monday morning

marantz1300

Cornwall voted leave and are demanding they still receive the £100 million a year the got from the EU.

I rest my case.