24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

Moe_Zambeek

Dan Hannan wasn't part of the official leave campaign, and he's always been of the opinion he is now - his arguments against the EU have always been political / operational. I saw him as a pragmatist on the movement of labour issue. He's not changing his tune now the vote is over. We're just starting to hear the many and varied voices of leave now, for whatever reason.

quarky

Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.” - Jean Monnet (apparently)

Perhaps the plan was too successful and we are already too far down that road..

Snap

I just think that in or out, the actuality on most things will be the same. If we want to trade with Europe, we will have to have open borders and we will end up paying a fee similar to what we pay into the EU now.

I guess that a potential upside is that we have access to free trade with US, China and many other growing markets.

So, where I'm coming from is that many of the arguments of the Leave campaign were maybe sensationalised (some could say cynically so) to get votes.

However, the same could be levied against the remain lot - I see Osbourne has back pedalled on his emergency austerity budget line.

They are all such liars.

The real loser in this IMO is politics and politicians. The whole system appears to be rotten.

Maybe when its all washed through we will perhaps have a more transparent poltical system that is in touch with more people.

But then, perhaps I am being naively optimistic.

capo4th

The leave voters have voted leave based on half a dozen popular sound bites which will never actually happen eg stop immigration, stop the £350million weekly direct debit to Europe, screw the bankers....

Delusional people who believed everything that Farage and Boris and The Daily Mail said.

paulmapp8306

bodhi;1124979" said:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

I normally just get on with life, whatever happens.  But a second referendum now that we already have the benefit of a bit of hindsight would maybe not be such a bad idea.

I got the impression that perhaps the Leave vote was more of a "f*** you" vote aimed at the politicians and the system and such, with the intention to give them a wake-up call, but that they didn't really expect to win.  Now that they have, maybe there's a bit of an "oh shit - what have we done.." realisation creeping in.

Maybe, I don't know - but the uncertainty this has caused is pretty scary to me in terms of my children's future.

The funny thing is - I listened to both arguments and both sides made some perfectly valid assertions.  There should have been some middle ground alternative way of going about it all, though.  This jump into the unknown doesn't feel like the best way of going about change.  It's like people think it can't get any worse, so let's just throw caution to the wind.  I think it can get a LOT worse.  But I hope it won't.

There was a middle ground. It meant the eu compromising on some of the issues the uk people went happy about. Reform from within
Unfortunately when they were asked to do that they stuck 2 fingers up at us. With that option gone it was a simple stay in with what the eu decides for us, or leave and have our own say.

I'd like to believe if the eu were asked to compromise again with the promise We'd stay if they did, they would do so (again with hindsight) but I doubt it. Thete more stubborn and superior than our own government.

paulmapp8306

DanR said:

So we contribute £250 million a week after the rebate to the EU.

The U.K. Has a population of 64 million.

Wales makes up 3 million of that and Cornwall 0.5 million.

So that's £390,000 per million people each week to the EU.

So Wales contributes £1.2 million and Cornwall £195,000 per week.

Wales received £9.6 million per week based on the £500 million they get back on average a year.

Cornwall received £1.9 million per week based on the £100 million they get back a year.

Where do they think that money will come from?

From the £250 net we dont give to Europe?  AS a country we pay in more than we get out including all the grants.  Granted, that would leave a lot less for other things - like deficit reducing, NHS or education - but its perfectly achievable.

paulmapp8306

Going back to the first page of this thread, there are some things to point out (which may have been done in the interim).

1.  WE cant have a referendum (or couldnt have done) with known "what will happen" facts, as they will only become apparent after negotiations, which could only happen after article 50 is invoked, which is irreversible.  So if we did vote again (or waited until we knew) we wouldnt be aloud to stay in even if that was how we voted.

2.  The EU can not (as far as Im aware) prevent us from staying in the EU if we dont enact Article 50.  Until then we are still in the EU, as we havent given formal notification to leave.

On that second point, and although its really a pure exercise, Id like to know how the EU stands legally by excluding the UK from meetings/decision making BEFORE we enact Article 50 - with the exception of meetings about how they would proceed IF we enacted the article.

chillidoggy

capo4th said:

The leave voters have voted leave based on half a dozen popular sound bites which will never actually happen eg stop immigration, stop the £350million weekly direct debit to Europe, screw the bankers....

Delusional people who believed everything that Farage and Boris and The Daily Mail said.

Yet another Remain voter suggesting that anyone who didn't agree with him must be delusional, I can only conclude that this particular record is well and truly stuck.

I voted out, and I can assure you I knew exactly what I was doing when I voted. And I am not delusional, racist, or any other name that Remain voters wish to call me.

Rocker

Fascinating radio program, Liveline with Joe Duffy, on RTE radio today.  People from the UK phoned Joe to talk about the Brexit vote and why they voted the way they did.

Go to the RTE website and search for Liveline playback if you are interested.

paulmapp8306

chillidoggy said:

capo4th said:

The leave voters have voted leave based on half a dozen popular sound bites which will never actually happen eg stop immigration, stop the £350million weekly direct debit to Europe, screw the bankers....

Delusional people who believed everything that Farage and Boris and The Daily Mail said.

Yet another Remain voter suggesting that anyone who didn't agree with him must be delusional, I can only conclude that this particular record is well and truly stuck.

I voted out, and I can assure you I knew exactly what I was doing when I voted. And I am not delusional, racist, or any other name that Remain voters wish to call me.

x2.  

for capo4th - nobody said anything about stopping immigration, its about CONTROLLING it to a manageable level, while "importing" the skills we need.

Currently, we are in this position:

 We may need 1 x Doctor and 1 x Nurse - but only have enough resources/space for one of them.  However the applications we get are from a Qualified African Nurse, and a Qualified Middle Eastern Doctor, along with 1 Polish unqualified labourer and and 1 Bulgarian truck driver.  

In this position, not only can we not take EITHER the doctor OR the nurse that we need, but we have to take 2 people we dont need, even though we only have space and resources to support 1.  

THIS is the reason to control immigration - not white supremacy (as most Europeans are white last time I looked), or racism, or any other form of ism.  Its just logical.  The fact that the EU FORCES us into this position, is the immigration argument.   We need controlled boarders, not open OR closed ones. 

quarky

Capo4th, do you also believes the EU turns £1000 into £9000 too?

I think those people branding people who voted leave as racists, disillusional, etc. should at least have a read of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/voters-will-stick-two-fingers-lecturing-brexit-dangers

DanR

So there's 5 lads going away on holiday.

Owen.
James.
Andrew.
Simon.
Quarky.

They decide to put there money together to take out when they are holiday.

So they meet Claude and put the money in.

Owen puts in £1000.
James puts in £1000.
Andrew puts in £1200.
Simon puts in £2000.
Quarky puts in £10.

They get on holiday and Claude gives out the money.

Owen gets back £1000.
James gets back £1000.
Andrew gets back £1000.
Simon gets back £1000.
Quarky gets back £1000.

Claude keeps £210 to give to the people who have organised the trip.

Quarky doesn't believe Claude should of kept any money back.

Next year the 5 talk about about going on holiday and Quarky thinks it would be a good idea but they shouldn't use Claude as he kept some of the money, instead Simon should do it.

They all put the same amounts in as last year but when they get on holiday Simon gives back what everyone put in.

Quarky spends all holiday talking about how Claude was a knob.

quarky

Sorry, you will to explain that one to me. The point is, the UK puts in MORE than it gets back.

DanR

They put £5210 in, got £5000 back spread evenly.

quarky

Right.

And maybe that is what the "leave" voters need to accept. We (the UK) will continue to pay out more than we put in until we are all down the same level. Which wouldn't be so bad, apart from the fact that being a full member of the EU is so bad for growth. Maybe that is the EU version of progress though.

Worked really well last century though didn't it?

quarky

At least Mervyn King is talking sense.

He told the BBC: "I think the Treasury is in a difficult position now because it did make very clear forecasts which I think were exaggerated in terms of at least the certainty they led people to believe could be attached to those forecasts, and now I think they're going to have to row back.

He also said that if Britain's economy slows after the referendum decision to leave the EU, it would not be the right time for a budget that cuts spending and raises taxes.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683869/Mervyn-King-Brexit-Project-Fear-Remain-camp-EU-referendum

It is pretty disgraceful how the remain camp are talking the country down.

chrispy108

quarky said:

It is pretty disgraceful how the remain camp are talking the country down.

The way some people talk you'd think we were living in caves without fire before the EU started.

Why give the EU credit for everything good in the country and your life?

richardhomer

chrispy108;1129053" said:

Why give the EU credit for everything good in the country and your life?

Because I mainly live on Brie and Beaujolais....

quarky

chrispy108 said:

quarky said:

It is pretty disgraceful how the remain camp are talking the country down.

The way some people talk you'd think we were living in caves without fire before the EU started.

Why give the EU credit for everything good in the country and your life?

Yep, that is the problem. We have grown much faster than the Eurozone before, and will again, if we can actually be allowed to get on it with.

So far, I have heard that:

Nissan will move production

Samsung will move offices

The banks are all going to leave

No one will pick apples

Manufacturing is doomed

Trade is doomed.

The ridiculous brow-beating should stop now. We know it is going to be tough, but that is only because WE SHOULD HAVE DONE IT YEARS AGO.

chrispy108

richardhomer said:

chrispy108;1129053" said:

Why give the EU credit for everything good in the country and your life?

Because I mainly live on Brie and Beaujolais....

And they weren't made before 1993?

They were made but you couldn't get them before 1993?

(Yes, you might be joking, but lots say similar things and aren't).