24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

DanR

So we contribute £250 million a week after the rebate to the EU.

The U.K. Has a population of 64 million.

Wales makes up 3 million of that and Cornwall 0.5 million.

So that's £390,000 per million people each week to the EU.

So Wales contributes £1.2 million and Cornwall £195,000 per week.

Wales received £9.6 million per week based on the £500 million they get back on average a year.

Cornwall received £1.9 million per week based on the £100 million they get back a year.

Where do they think that money will come from?

mgaw

i think the point of the Development Fund was to spread the wealth.....and surely thats a good thing  and probably needs to happen a lot more, once the various regions have been supported obviously the funding tapers off...dont get confused by this 6 million people come down to Cornwall on holiday each year, they enjoy better roads, etc and the local economy as it is has been given funds to improve itself.

If you were to follow your arguement to its logical conclusion that a party shouldnt receive more than it contributes then there is not much point in any social enterprise

Oh and the money comes from a central kitty and whats wrong with that....look at the state of the North East of England, do we as a nation continue to leave it to rot?

DanR

I think my point has been missed slightly, or not explained clearly.

What I was lookin at was quarkys comment of paying in £1000 and getting £800 back where in reality they are getting £9-10,000 back.

This is purely looking at Wales/Cornwall.

mgaw

they are getting.. all that money back because it was almost third worldish down here,  now of course the main road into the county is nearly all dual carriage way...

johnnyurq

quarky said:

I think it had made the ruling class look like eejits. I am actually quite proud of the citizens for standing up and voting for what they believe in.

True and is what I really meant but never clarified.

chrispy108

DanR;1127652" said:

What I was lookin at was quarkys comment of paying in £1000 and getting £800 back where in reality they are getting £9-10,000 back.

This is purely looking at Wales/Cornwall.

Do the sums for London then (they'll be getting back much less than put in), and the UK as a whole. No point looking at just one part of the UK in this calculation.

marantz1300

Maybe london will be better off and every where else slightly skint.

Bogwhoppit

I can't help feeling that 'brexit light' is being prepared.

'If' the referendum result is not adhered to, it will be the last time I'll ever vote in any political decision of the UK. Democracy is not 'best of three'. 

This feeling runs strong in both leavers and remainers in my social group - its not an action based on adverse decisions, but one based on the rules of a democratic nation-state. If you remove or interfere with that process, then you're moving down a dangerous path.

quarky

ewal said:

quarky said:

Right. So we give the EU £X, and then give us back £X minus some. Perhaps that is why remain didn't use it in their campaign, because they knew people would see it for what it is.

Not sure why you are criticising "successive UK governments", are you saying they don't spend on regional development? Or are you complaining that they don't spend the money on regional development that they give to the EU, who then give some back???

I know, why don't you give me £1000. I will give you £800 back, and you can then boast about what a good deal it is?

And the Government didn't boast about building hospitals, the Government supported the remain campaign

As you well know that is an overly simplistic analogy. I can't really be bothered re-igniting the Leave vs Remain argument. But generally yes sometimes I don't expect to get everything back that I pay in. I accept that I am relatively wealthy and as such will pay in more than I get out. I also expect part of what I pay in to be spent on the administration of things that are of equal benefit to all parties - call it a service fee if you like. Time will tell I suppose - there are a few people that appear to think that leaving will be a good thing economically, however there are a lot more than think it will not.

Right.

So, you accept that instead of us funding regional development directly, the ERDF is simply a way for the EU to give us back a fraction of the money that we give them, but that is a good thing.

Yeah, I am not surprised you don't want to go into it.

quarky

DanR said:

I think my point has been missed slightly, or not explained clearly.

What I was lookin at was quarkys comment of paying in £1000 and getting £800 back where in reality they are getting £9-10,000 back.

This is purely looking at Wales/Cornwall.

It is about net payments, that isn't what we contribute, it is what we contribute, take away what we get back.

quarky

Lets say your assumption is true though, about paying in the £1000 and getting £9,000 back. Considering we are one of the biggest contributors to the EU, where you think the difference comes from? What country contributes for us to get that much money back?

Or do you think the EU just creates the money in it's budget? Serious question, I am not being facetious.

siremoon

The whole exercise was badly conceived and executed from start to finish.  Cameron and his inner circle are wholly responsible for the outcome imo.

Cameron entered negotiations with no understanding of the mandate he had and the feeling in the country at large.  No excuse and a damning indictment of the Westminster bubble.

He believed he had no leverage, as did the EU establishment and the deal he got reflected that.  No excuse.  Lack of preparation, research, understanding and unbelievable given the seriousness of the issue.

He called the referendum far too quickly because he believed there was no appetite to leave.  No excuse. See above.

He assumed Labour would get their vote out, and they would support remain. Totally failed to understand the mood and splits in the Labour party and Corbyn's less than inspiring leadership style.  Stupid and no excuse.

He failed to have a clear understanding of which side major Tory players would support.  Most notably Boris.  No excuse.

He allowed the Remain campaign to develop into a torrent of threats rather than clearly setting out the positive benefits of the EU in a way "ordinary" people could understand.  Second biggest mistake of all probably and no excuse.

He failed to understand that rightly or wrongly, many people were concerned about immigration.  Because of his weak preparation he failed to make any inroads into Schengen.  There is a French proposal to change Schengen so it only applies to EU passport holders, this has been around for a while and has some support.  This shows that Schengen is not immutable as Juncker kept saying.  Cameron could and should have exploited this.  It would for example make it harder for Calais to become a congregating point for non EU migrants.  That might have swayed some opinion in Kent for example.  This and other things should have been persued rigorously.  They weren't.  No excuse and probably the biggest mistake.

In short Cameron was badly prepared and badly advised.  He screwed up big time and now has the consequences.

ewal

quarky;1127724" said:

Right.

So, you accept that instead of us funding regional development directly, the ERDF is simply a way for the EU to give us back a fraction of the money that we give them, but that is a good thing.

Yeah, I am not surprised you don't want to go into it.

Your point would be valid if ERDF was the only product of our contribution, but of course it's not.
I raised ERDF as an example of one of the positive aspects of the EU which the Remain campaign didn't really highlight - alot of very poorly informed voters have just made a massive decision....
I didn't raise the subject to get back into a leave - remain debate. Too late for that now!

DanR

quarky;1127733" said:

Lets say your assumption is true though, about paying in the £1000 and getting £9,000 back. Considering we are one of the biggest contributors to the EU, where you think the difference comes from? What country contributes for us to get that much money back?

Or do you think the EU just creates the money in it's budget? Serious question, I am not being facetious.

The EU doesn't create money the same as the UK government doesn't create money.

The working population creates the money.

What I'm looking at is both Wales and Cornwall voted out, despite getting more net from the EU than they realistically put in without any sort of guarantee that they will receive the same fundings.

Until were physically out its all a guessing game but let's be honest when has Westminister really cared about what happens further North than Watford?

ICBM

It is absolutely true that the money the EU spends in deprived areas of our country is our money, but the plain fact is that our government won't do it. No government of either party has properly redistributed wealth in that way - partly I think because they know that the relative populations of those areas are quite small and hence they're electorally insignificant at best, or think they vote for the other side anyway.

quarky

ewal said:

quarky;1127724" said:

Right.

So, you accept that instead of us funding regional development directly, the ERDF is simply a way for the EU to give us back a fraction of the money that we give them, but that is a good thing.

Yeah, I am not surprised you don't want to go into it.

Your point would be valid if ERDF was the only product of our contribution, but of course it's not.
I raised ERDF as an example of one of the positive aspects of the EU which the Remain campaign didn't really highlight - alot of very poorly informed voters have just made a massive decision....
I didn't raise the subject to get back into a leave - remain debate. Too late for that now!

No, but you said the British public were too stupid to understand ERDF. I was pointing out that if they understand that is just the EU giving them back some of their own money, perhaps they do understand it better than you do, which is probably why remain didn't highlight it.

DanR said:

quarky;1127733" said:

Lets say your assumption is true though, about paying in the £1000 and getting £9,000 back. Considering we are one of the biggest contributors to the EU, where you think the difference comes from? What country contributes for us to get that much money back?

Or do you think the EU just creates the money in it's budget? Serious question, I am not being facetious.

The EU doesn't create money the same as the UK government doesn't create money.

The working population creates the money.

What I'm looking at is both Wales and Cornwall voted out, despite getting more net from the EU than they realistically put in without any sort of guarantee that they will receive the same fundings.

Until were physically out its all a guessing game but let's be honest when has Westminister really cared about what happens further North than Watford?

The working population works to create wealth which is taxed by the Government, who then spend it, and in this case give some to the EU, so do you think that the EU re-distributes *more* than it receives (like in your example above)? Or do you accept that it is just giving out the money it receives from the states, and in the case of (I think) us, Germany, France, and Italy, less than what we give it?

I am trying to understand how you think the EU turns £1,000 into £9,000?

PolarityMan

quarky said:

ewal said:

quarky;1127724" said:

Right.

So, you accept that instead of us funding regional development directly, the ERDF is simply a way for the EU to give us back a fraction of the money that we give them, but that is a good thing.

Yeah, I am not surprised you don't want to go into it.

Your point would be valid if ERDF was the only product of our contribution, but of course it's not.
I raised ERDF as an example of one of the positive aspects of the EU which the Remain campaign didn't really highlight - alot of very poorly informed voters have just made a massive decision....
I didn't raise the subject to get back into a leave - remain debate. Too late for that now!

No, but you said the British public were too stupid to understand ERDF. I was pointing out that if they understand that is just the EU giving them back some of their own money, perhaps they do understand it better than you do, which is probably why remain didn't highlight it.

DanR said:

quarky;1127733" said:

Lets say your assumption is true though, about paying in the £1000 and getting £9,000 back. Considering we are one of the biggest contributors to the EU, where you think the difference comes from? What country contributes for us to get that much money back?

Or do you think the EU just creates the money in it's budget? Serious question, I am not being facetious.

The EU doesn't create money the same as the UK government doesn't create money.

The working population creates the money.

What I'm looking at is both Wales and Cornwall voted out, despite getting more net from the EU than they realistically put in without any sort of guarantee that they will receive the same fundings.

Until were physically out its all a guessing game but let's be honest when has Westminister really cared about what happens further North than Watford?

The working population works to create wealth which is taxed by the Government, who then spend it, and in this case give some to the EU, so do you think that the EU re-distributes *more* than it receives (like in your example above)? Or do you accept that it is just giving out the money it receives from the states, and in the case of (I think) us, Germany, France, and Italy, less than what we give it?

I am trying to understand how you think the EU turns £1,000 into £9,000?

Careful here, working population does generate the tax budget but the proportion provided by the working class is actually pretty tiny. If you add up the total tax revenue and divide by working age population then you see that's you need to be earning about 38k per year to be contributing the average tax amount. Given this is significantly below the average national wage and that I haven't accounted for those not in work and you can see how skewed the source of tax revenue really is.

DanR

No matter how much you argue against it, if you live in Wales your £1000 becomes £9000.

That money no doubt comes from the rest of the U.K. but that wasn't the discussion, we were discussing how the EU redistributes the money into Wales but they still voted out.

There's little chance they will get the same amount of money back into the country as they do now, Westminister cares about London and the South, always have.

quarky

DanR said:

No matter how much you argue against it, if you live in Wales your £1000 becomes £9000.

That money no doubt comes from the rest of the U.K. but that wasn't the discussion, we were discussing how the EU redistributes the money into Wales but they still voted out.

There's little chance they will get the same amount of money back into the country as they do now, Westminister cares about London and the South, always have.

The ERDF doesn't create money. The EU takes money from the UK, and gives *some* of that back to the UK. Less though, than what we give. So it isn't some kind of gift from the EU. That is a fact, no matter how much people want to ignore it.

You other comment about Westminster only caring about London is an assumption. Considering Government spending in the rest of the UK, I would disagree, but hey, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

There is a good infographic here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hmtreasury/25530823060/

Feel free to ignore though.

Snap

I think what is beginning to emerge is that some of the things that Leave claimed would happen were perhaps communicated in a blurred way, and actually won't transpire.

For example, if we (as is likely) sign up to a singel market or some form of EU trade agreement, we will quite probably have to agree to free movement of workers.

It also seems that immigration will still continue, as is. Witness Dan Hannan interviewed over the weekend.

It is showing politicians up for what they have always been accused of being - self serving bullshitters.

And in the crossfire we are all caught.