24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

mgaw

perhaps but it has helped i am sure

ICBM

The purpose of the EU was not to stop wars in the Soviet bloc - which even Yugoslavia was in originally - in the 1940s it was never imagined that the future EU would expand eastwards that far. It was to rehabilitate Germany, cement the Franco-German peace and prevent any possibility of a re-run of post-WWI Germany leading to a third war. It's worth remembering that the treaty of Rome, in which West Germany joined the EEC, was signed just less than 12 years after the death of Hitler.

I fully agree that the EU's eastwards expansion - and NATO's parallel ambitions - is potentially dangerous and is one of the reasons I'm not entirely happy with it.

siremoon

chrispy108 said:

I think the Balkans and Ukraine would disagree with the common line of thinking that the EU stops anything bad happening...

Absolutely.  The EU's role in creating the situation in Ukraine was not exactly their finest hour.

ICBM

siremoon said:

The EU's role in creating the situation in Ukraine was not exactly their finest hour.

100% agreed - in fact almost certainly the most dangerous and stupid thing they've ever done.

Don't underestimate NATO's role though, they're equally guilty.

Nitefly

capo4th said:

Older people who hark back to their rosy past and don't realise the global world has moved on and plenty of morons with nothing to lose.

Who wis'd this rubbish?

(The Wow was mine, btw).

capo4th

Nitefly said:

capo4th said:

Older people who hark back to their rosy past and don't realise the global world has moved on and plenty of morons with nothing to lose.

Who wis'd this rubbish?

(The Wow was mine, btw).

it's true I have spoken to loads of them since Thursday including my older neighbours. 

I have never known people to be so willing to talk politics. 

Older people have no mortgage to pay and are happy drifting along but are concerned by different people in their community. They remember the glory days of manufacturing and love the past  

Many of them also read the daily mail.

Morons with nothing to lose well I have no time to waste discussing this category. 

Obviously some people have made an informed decision and I respect that but I don't think we will be leaving the EU any time soon.

siremoon

I'm an older moron, being retired and having no mortgage. 

All my life I've been looking for a way of pigeon holing myself.  Now I have it.  "Older Morons with nothing to lose".  Let's unite and rejoice.

Only there's a problem.   I don't love the past or manufacturing, and, most importantly I've never read the Daily Mail.  I'm worried now that my Older Moron membership will be rejected.  That would be a real blow.

capo4th

Not at all you are welcome to self categorisation consider your categorised.

Rocker

As I understand it, access to The Free Market, is going to cost the UK a significant amount of money.  Giving money to the EU and getting none of it back seems pretty daft to me.  Yet that is what is going to happen.

Of course the EU is a corrupt organisation.  All large organisations are to some extent corrupt.  Take the HSE in Ireland or the NHS in the UK. The payback for receiving an enormous annual funding by those organisations is very poor.  The EU needs to and could be changed for the better.  But one country on its own could not achieve much if any change, it needs a number of powerful countries demanding the change.  The UK along with France and Italy as well as the active support of countries such as Ireland would achieve this.

It seems that the UK voters wanted to put the frighteners on the EU.  Looking at the result from this side of the Irish Sea, it appears that the Leave side did not expect to win.  But a high percentage voting for Leave would trigger reform of the EU.  That was never going to happen.  Now someone like Boris Johnson has to commit political suicide by acting on the Referendum result.  He was a big advocate for the Leave campaign.  The Leave he had not planned to trigger is his leaving of Number 10.. 

Nitefly

capo4th said:

Nitefly said:

capo4th said:

Older people who hark back to their rosy past and don't realise the global world has moved on and plenty of morons with nothing to lose.

Who wis'd this rubbish?

(The Wow was mine, btw).

it's true I have spoken to loads of them since Thursday including my older neighbours. 

I have never known people to be so willing to talk politics. 

Older people have no mortgage to pay and are happy drifting along but are concerned by different people in their community. They remember the glory days of manufacturing and love the past  

Many of them also read the daily mail.

Morons with nothing to lose well I have no time to waste discussing this category.

Mmm - with you re morons - waste of time discussing.

However I am getting sick of generalisations about it being the fault of "older voters".  

How old is "older"?

I'm 67, my wife is 63, my mother is 88, my 2 drinking buddies are 63 and 60 this year, ALL voted Remain.

Chalky

Any chance we can be real about the next PM. They will not be committing political suicide, whatever happens. They will be Prime Minister at what will undoubtedly a history-creating moment. Guaranteed biography in every history book.

If you've ever met senior politicians you will know there will be no shortage of MPs who would give their right arm to be Prime Minister. They aren't short of ego.

capo4th

Nitefly said:

capo4th said:

Nitefly said:

capo4th said:

Older people who hark back to their rosy past and don't realise the global world has moved on and plenty of morons with nothing to lose.

Who wis'd this rubbish?

(The Wow was mine, btw).

it's true I have spoken to loads of them since Thursday including my older neighbours. 

I have never known people to be so willing to talk politics. 

Older people have no mortgage to pay and are happy drifting along but are concerned by different people in their community. They remember the glory days of manufacturing and love the past  

Many of them also read the daily mail.

Morons with nothing to lose well I have no time to waste discussing this category.

Mmm - with you re morons - waste of time discussing.

However I am getting sick of generalisations about it being the fault of "older voters".  

How old is "older"?

I'm 67, my wife is 63, my mother is 88, my 2 drinking buddies are 63 and 60 this year, ALL voted Remain.

the demographic breakdown suggests a much higher % of older people 50 plus voted to leave unfortunately I have not seen the statistics for the morons but assume it also contributed heavily to the leave vote. Everyone is entitled to a vote I am pleased you saw the implications and what was coming.

Nitefly

@capo4th - not having a pop at you, mate, it was just a nerve that keeps getting touched!

Are these numbers from the Ashcroft exit poll?  As I recall, that was 12300-odd people.

I wonder if it's possible (or even legal, given that it's supposed to be a secret ballot!) to find out exactly how many votes were cast in each age group, and which way they voted?

Heartfeltdawn

Chalky said:If you've ever met senior politicians you will know there will be no shortage of MPs who would give their right arm to be Prime Minister. They aren't short of ego.

I'm quite happy for Jeremy Hunt to lose a limb in exchange for a Prime Minister campaign slot. But why stop at the arm? 

PolarityMan

In my opinion Jeremy Hunt comes across quite well but sadly I suspect his reputation has been tarnished by the impossible job he was given.

skankdelvar

All this 'old people stole my country' stuff is guilty young people covering their arses for the fact that half of them couldn't be bothered to go vote and a quarter of those that turned up voted for Leave.

And not to draw any conclusions but as someone observed somewhere else: 

"Ever noticed with Remainers its 'My Country' but with Leavers it's 'Our Country' ".

littlegreenman

skankdelvar said:

All this 'old people stole my country' stuff is guilty young people covering their arses for the fact that half of them couldn't be bothered to go vote and a quarter of those that turned up voted for Leave.

And not to draw any conclusions but as someone observed somewhere else: 

"Ever noticed with Remainers its 'My Country' but with Leavers it's 'Our Country' ".

Yes. It is "My Country". Each of us, as unique individuals. Not "Ours", as some kind of club that us individuals have to either be a part of, or apart from. "Ours" means there must also be "Theirs". Us and Them. Divisive. And as such, not really where any modern progressive society really wants to be heading I'd suggest.

PolarityMan

If also suggest that by saying "my" you at speaking only for youslf, not either trying to speak for others or hiding personal responsibility for your views behind another group.

PolarityMan

Not a lot in Cameron's press conference really. Some reassurance that not everyone wants to rush through article 50 as quickly as possible but not much else.

littlegreenman

PolarityMan said:

If also suggest that by saying "my" you at speaking only for youslf, not either trying to speak for others or hiding personal responsibility for your views behind another group.

Yep. I can only speak for myself. To do otherwise would be doing myself, and everyone else a great disservice. I cannot speak for anyone else, cos I can't do mind-reading.

My views might align with parts of other peoples, but I'm not going to assume to speak on their behalf. Neither would I assume they would speak for mine.