24hrs later, It strikes me that ...

Dominic

Emp_Fab said:

tbm said:

Emp_Fab;1125167" said:

We are leaving the EU.  That's it.  We voted for it (I did too, and I now wish I hadn't).

Nothing is going to stop this.

Why do you wish you hadn't? I've seen loads of folk say this in the past day or so. I'm fascinated by it.

I've been flip-flopping between leave and remain all along, the fact that the referendum has now passed hasn't changed my indecision.  I just watched the video of Owen Jones that @fields5069 posted and it's definitely made me rethink.  The trouble was, trying to find any sensible information in the chaos and noise of the run-up to the vote was impossible.  When you have two groups shouting horseshit 24/7 at a load of confused voters then shove them in a polling booth, this is what you get.

That was exactly my point made earlier when somebody accused me of denying democracy !

bodhi

I think democracy is being confused with painting yourself into a corner with no way out in case you feel embarrassed about it.

JezWynd

camf said:

I think the EU might do much better without England. They've never really fitted in and many in Europe find English attitudes to Europe difficult to relate to. 

Aside from notions of independence, Scotland has always been more in tune with Europe, due to historically having a completely different legal system to England, a different educational system and at least in the recent past, a completely different religious system. Scotland even has a completely different approach to monarchy (it's why the monarch isn't Queen of Scotland - constitutionally, she can't be - she's Queen of Scots). All of Scotland's key formative structures, eduction, citizenship and property ownership are based in systems that are rooted in Continental Europe and even predate the Reformation. Despite the unions of 1603 and 1707, the failure to fully integrate these key elements into a pan-UK system have had far more profound differences than most people realise on shaping Scottish culture and attitudes, as pretty clearly evidenced in the referendum. (Partly this was a result of several Jacobite uprisings and a general reluctance to destabilise what was reasonably perceived as being the 'warlike' north.)

Since the Reformation, England has sought to isolate itself from Europe to protect its own religious and cultural integrity but has always been worried about its much more Europhile and unpredictable immediate neighbour. It seems nuts that given the huge changes we've seen in the last seventy years we might be about to find ourselves back in the same position we were entering the eighteenth century.

I really wish Europe the very best and I think this arrangement will work much, much better for the EU. It might even work best for England. However, England's previous way of dealing with its preferred isolated position but relative lack of natural resources in comparison to the size of its population was to use its considerable military force, and in particular its naval strength, to invade and exploit weaker, less advanced and what would now be considered 'third world' countries and thereby extend its trading empire. I sincerely hope that option no longer exists. But currently, I'm not sure what other options England has. We shall see.

So maybe it's best for Scotland if it gets to finally integrate more with Europe, best for the EU to no longer have England undermining it from within and happier, at least in the short term, for England too.

This is just my musings... you'll doubtless think I'm an idiot.   

I think your summation of the issues is spot on. And yes, you're right ,England did take by force those resources it naturally lacked. But the resources that Britain has in abundance are imagination and creativity. These are the jewels that see us leaders in music, fashion and many of the arts.P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }

You're right in supposing that the EU may do better without us on board and by the same token, we may well do better without them. It was never a great fit, our opting out of the euro (a very sensible decision) somewhat undermined the validity of the new currency. If we can guard against a lurch to the right and too much union jack waving the future is bright.

fields5069

This was ochlocracy, not democracy, in action.

Heartfeltdawn

HAL9000 said:

^This. The margin wasn't big enough. Cards on the table - I voted remain. However, had the result gone the way I'd have liked but with the same narrow winning margin I would still agree that the margin wasn't big enough. Also, I'm not a fan of David Cameron's politics, but don't believe he should have been expected to resign, and for exactly the same reason - the margin wasn't big enough.

There were members of the Conservative party who said that a Remain win by less than 20% would have seen the Leavers demanding a resignation/vote of no confidence. A Leave victory = no chance of hanging on despite that pitiful letter some Leavers contributed to asking him to stay on. 

TTony

Heartfeltdawn said:

Chalky said:

The attitude of people like @TTony is appalling. Democracy is only acceptable to them when it comes up with the 'right' answer.

Tony was on the Leave side on May 31st. 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1092727/#Comment_1092727

I'd establish how he voted before making statements that he's just griping because he didn't get the result he wanted. 

But sound bite bombing is so much easier.

Chalky

Dominic;1125206" said:

Chalky said:

Dominic;1125149" said:Why not ask 2 Sheep which airline they prefer to travel on ? The very strange dilemma is that the general population were asked to pronounce upon a subject that they simply do not have any understanding of or expertise in the issues that matter. Thinking about it rationally NO professional would advise or counsel on a matter beyond their expertise - You wouldn't expect your doctor to give Legal advice or your Accountant to prescribe medication.  Unfortunately, the voters as a decision making body are then wholly vulnerable cannon fodder to the manipulation of sensationalised statistics from both camps topped off by being led ' ring through nose' by tabloid press sentiment designed to shepherd the masses or inflated scaremongering from the Jeremiahs of the Remain camp -the Chicken -Littles who say the sky is falling.



If Churchill could have commented on this he may well have said " Never have so many ignorants been so misled by so  little information spread by so few sources to so many " Of course,the soft targets that garner public support are over-egged ( Immigration ) and the boring economic Keynsian theory that would go over the heads of so many is not allowed to blur the issues considered tangible to Outraged of Eastbourne (retired ) when he collects his Daily Mail or the non-executive working man . Keep it Simple. I do not have a strong view either way, there will still be bread in the shops tomorrow,the sun will still rise and sometimes change can be challenging and fun .........how many people sit in loveless marriages for 30 years because they are scared of change ?There may well be difficult implications -it certainly will not have any impact on immigration -that is a fact of the modern transitory world but to some who have seen Mrs Smith next door replaced with Mr Ali or their work-mate Phil replaced by Pavel they want to embrace a media opinion that sensationalises this as an expression of objection.They are cannon fodder for the media. Put Simply,the decision was effectively put in the hands of people that hadn't really got a clue,were dis-informed and were not qualified to judge - but that's democracy. Maybe the Sheep do have an Airline preference and maybe one man and his dog can shepherd them to Heathrow but they don't have the knowledge of how to buy the ticket !

Read the history of voting rights in this country and you will see you are saying exactly what the upper classes were saying 200 years ago! Voting must be restricted because the population don't understand!



Truly staggered at the Remainers' attacks on basic democracy.





You're totally missing the point old chap - Its not a comment on who has the right to vote at all ,or democracy .......its a point about how little rational information people were given and how the press/media used that to sensationalise opinion ;be it the remainers or the exiters .........irrespective of who won it is a point of fact that a huge volume of voters were influenced by the power of media . Personally I don't care ; I am happy to try a change or to accept the Eu status ,I am well educated but I really don't have the first clue about the implications either way and I never found there to be any sound or finite rationale behind any of the proponents throughout the campaigning process .It is a comment upon the information process and manipulation of it ; not who is entitled to process it.

I'm not missing the point at all. Your argument is a very old one - if the plebs had been told the right things ("rational information" in your language) and not the wrong things ("press/media used that to sensationalise opinion" in your language) then they would have voted correctly.

You are still arrogantly arguing that the 'right' input to the voters would have changed their minds. Like you know better than them.

TTony

PolarityMan said:

It is an interesting idea to test the result for statistical significance which as @Ttony points out would probably show they were inconclusive. However I think that this is somewhat divorced from reality where this was in fact a record turn out and a very clear victory for leave.

But if you accept that the result was probably statistically insignificant based on the margin of difference in the True/False outcome and also the quantity of Nulls, then you can hardly conclude that anything was "clear", except that nothing at all was clear.

Chalky

TTony;1125258" said:

PolarityMan said:

It is an interesting idea to test the result for statistical significance which as @Ttony points out would probably show they were inconclusive. However I think that this is somewhat divorced from reality where this was in fact a record turn out and a very clear victory for leave.





But if you accept that the result was probably statistically insignificant based on the margin of difference in the True/False outcome and also the quantity of Nulls, then you can hardly conclude that anything was "clear", except that nothing at all was clear.

If Remain had won on the same figures in reverse you would not be spouting such bullshit. The democratic process rules are clear. You cannot change them. Well you can try but are doomed to fail.

Heartfeltdawn

Chalky said:

If Remain had won on the same figures in reverse you would not be spouting such bullshit. The democratic process rules are clear. You cannot change them. Well you can try but are doomed to fail.

What way did Tony vote? 

camf

JezWynd said:

I think your summation of the issues is spot on. And yes, you're right ,England did take by force those resources it naturally lacked. But the resources that Britain has in abundance are imagination and creativity. These are the jewels that see us leaders in music, fashion and many of the arts.P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }

You're right in supposing that the EU may do better without us on board and by the same token, we may well do better without them. It was never a great fit, our opting out of the euro (a very sensible decision) somewhat undermined the validity of the new currency. If we can guard against a lurch to the right and too much union jack waving the future is bright.

Ten years ago, I would have completely agreed with you but that bloody internet has ruined everything. As a collective of musicians, how are we currently faring economically? The music industry is imploding other than for those multinational entities able to still exert some control over distribution.

The film industry is the same, we have individual talent for sure and London has a role, but all the main distributers are based in LA, with Paris and Berlin being the financial muscle in the European market. Despite its recognised quality, UK television has a very poor international value outside of factual and occasional period drama successes and recently European broadcasters and TV indies have upped their game hugely (see the rise in Scandic noir and even shite like Versailles). Generally, at least in my experience, in the film and TV, European funding and co-production underpins almost everything. All the big markets are in Europe: Berlinale and the European Film Market for cinema, Cannes/MIP for both film and TV, and Annecy and Cartoon Movie in Lyon for animation. There are no equivalents in the UK.

Fashion, yes, we have a influencial position. However, we don't really manufacture anymore so the IP of the fashion design element has a high profile 'tip of the iceburg' value and then Far East providers rip it off and make the big money turning out cheaply made garments 'based' on these designs.

We do okay in IT, we've previously done okay in science and technology but the huge hole created by losing support from the EU will be difficult for any government to fill when the regions and the NHS, education, especially the universities, the police, immigration and border control, welfare for increased levels of unemployed, etc etc are all demanding the remaining resources. If we start to slip backwards, then that again could have a profoundly gloomy impact on our medium term economy. So I'm uncertain that the knowledge-based economy we've previously benefited from is going to come to our aid.

We fucked up our manufacturing sector so what's left? Steel? Car production? Farming? Fishing? Brewing? Canal boat holidays? Er...

TTony

Heartfeltdawn said:

Chalky said:

If Remain had won on the same figures in reverse you would not be spouting such bullshit. The democratic process rules are clear. You cannot change them. Well you can try but are doomed to fail.

What way did Tony vote? 

Let's not bring facts into this.

Prejudice and assumption have served us well thus far.

Heartfeltdawn

TTony said:

Let's not bring facts into this.

Prejudice and assumption have served us well thus far.

Very well . Then pardon this outburst below. It's the first time I've openly abused someone on here for ages but in this instance it's needed. 

Chalky said:

If Remain had won on the same figures in reverse you would not be spouting such bullshit. The democratic process rules are clear. You cannot change them. Well you can try but are doomed to fail.

HE VOTED LEAVE, YOU COCKWOMBLE. 

scrumhalf

Oh lord, some of this is pure generation snowflake nonsense.

"We lost, according to the rules, which we agreeed upon beforehand, but since we lost we want to do the whole thing again, this time changing the rules (to reflect the actual outcome so that the odds are stacked in favour of us. And by 'us', we mean those whose views weren't in the majority."

Learn how to lose gracefully, get on with your lives, and stop the hissy fits just because things didn't go your way.

digitalscream

Chalky said:

If Remain had won on the same figures in reverse you would not be spouting such bullshit. The democratic process rules are clear. You cannot change them. Well you can try but are doomed to fail.

The fact that you keep spouting this despite the fact that he voted Leave is entirely the point. Perhaps if you learned to read and comprehend, your point might have a bit more validity.

In any case, an awful lot of people who voted Remain have been saying that this should never have been a referendum (because it would be decided on emotion rather than facts, and it's too important to decide with wilful ignorance) right from the start. I know I have.

Chalky

What does it matter which way he voted? Am I supposed to note down everyone's votes? Still a bullshit analysis.

digitalscream

Chalky said:

What does it matter which way he voted? Am I supposed to note down everyone's votes? Still a bullshit analysis.

So...given that you now know that he voted Leave, what precisely makes you think he wouldn't have this opinion if the vote had gone against him?

Chalky

I assumed he voted Remain. Sadly he's insignificant in my life so I don't monitor what he thinks. Still a bullshit analysis.

siremoon

Nitefly said:

digitalscream said:

The irony of all this is that because the cutoff is after our turn to take the EU presidency, we'll still get it in 2017.

I don't know, but won't there be some provision in the Article 50 trigger mechanism that would preclude this?  I can't see Juncker and his pals letting us cock a snook like that...

They've got no choice I'm afraid.  Their beloved treaty means we can take as long as we like and they can do nothing about it.  Changing that requires all 28 member states to agree.  I suspect we wouldn't.

digitalscream

Chalky said:

I assumed he voted Remain. Sadly he's insignificant in my life so I don't monitor what he thinks. Still a bullshit analysis.

So...you're totally aware that basically everything you've just said was wrong, but you're still sticking to it.

Nice one, Einstein.