Honest question no baiting or insults

Modulus_Amps

@professorben said:

Yes I see your points, I'm not ignoring them, I'm challenging them.
Yes as an example the Poles can make a product more cheaply than the uk can, but only due to wages, the raw materials will still cost the same, unfortunately the issue of wages is not an EU thing, it's a global issue, the fact is we live in an expensive country, wages are higher than other places because they need to be, the price of a global marketplace, why did Fender start making guitars in Chiba? It's cheaper.
But they didn't stop making American guitars, far from it, they produce more than ever, I'd say the way forward is not to chase the lowest price point but to build to the highest quality point. Where a well paid and motivated staff are a boon.

You mean like the well paid and booning Gibson guitar makers...... read the reviews on glassdoor.

Why did Fender start making guitars in China.. to make more money! and it is exactly the reason that companies in the UK have closed up shop here and moved to other EU countries.

Yes it is a global issue, but being apart of a single market means we cannot control any of it,  for instance if we wanted to boost our guitar making market they could increase tarriff on imports or change legislation to do so, allowing our markets to recover and be competitive. Right now the UK has no control over that within the EU.
But the EU has control of it and that is why we get so many silly EU directives, like the straight banana one and the Chocolate one, they are created to protect internal markets.

Seriously companies that produce really high quality stuff when there is a cheaper alternative sell less, as a result they employ less, Generally that is bad for poorer people of the UK, we need widget makers here too and we need a climate where widget making companies can be profitable.

Rocker

@lloyd ever country has "unelected officials". They are called Civil Servants. Do you really believe that the Government has any real input to the Budget for example? Slightly influencing the thrust of the Budget is the best that Government can hope for. Civil Servants draw it up and the Government takes responsibility for it. The EU is no different.

Teetonetal

Fretwired said:

Teetonetal said:

From my POV the EU made a mistakes when they let in countries who didn't meet their own cr

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

@Fretwired - at the very least, those are all reasons to wait and see what happens over the next two or three years as the changes in the EU start to solidify and then make a decision.

Of course, the whole "closer political union, EU army etc" thing - do we really want that 800lb gorilla on our doorstep with the USA on the other side and have no direct way to influence either of them?

@digitalscream I'm past all this Britain as a global player bullshit. I look at Switzerland and think that could be the UK. We don't need Trident or a seat on the UN Security Council or US bases on UK soil. Let's build a fairer society, invest in our young people, up-skill the workforce and make things people want to buy. We can then get on with everyone - we can't influence the US or the EU so let's not bother. We can reconnect with the Commonwealth and become a major player in Asia. People will prefer an open and independent UK. We'd get on better with the Chinese if they saw we weren't fawning all over the US. Stuff the special relationship. In recent years its just meant supporting dodgy overseas wars. What's that done for Britain's global reputation?

You are looking at Switzerland with no perspective.

• Switzerland has a history of neutrality and independence
  
• It is a federal state with it's cantons afforded fairly high levels of independence (income tax is per Gemeinde for example), in fact, Switzerland is almost a mini EU - shared currency, law and military, but independent regions. 
  
• Switzerland is fiercely conservative with a massive lean to the right, especially in the countryside - with a Green hue.
• There is a culture of Schweizer qualität - they pay more to buy Swiss
• Economy is not based on housing. only 20% are home owners.
• the economy is really financial based and they have the financial offices of many huge global companies (Google, Swiss Re, Man Investments, Fifa, Ebay and HSBC spring to mind)

From the start Switzerland has been afraid of the EU, it has never wanted to join and I think there have been 2 or 3 referendums on the subject, each defeated clearly. In fact in 2014 the population voted for fewer ties - wanting to pick and choose which states keep freedom of movement via Schengen (they want rid of the eastern and southern European blocs). 

Then of course, it sits neatly between north and south, east and west and provides a neat trade link through the alps. 

They are doing well for themselves and not joining as been the right thing for them to do.

OK .. all I meant was Switzerland manages to get on with everyone, has high wages and makes high tech goods. It has no nuclear weapons and stays out of wars. I realise there are other issues. My brush was broad ... :-)

Actually I'd argue that Switzerland doesn't get on with anyone....

Switzerland does have a high wage, but the cost of living is very high accordingly. so the wealth is relative. Like the UK most of us earn enough to live ok, the are many poor and the real wealth is in a handful of people. what helps is that state benifit is very good, and unemployment is very low (though rising)

One huge difference is personal debt. People tend not to have credit cards or buy houses, people buy only when they have saved. It's quite a difference. My Swiss friends here live in small apartments, they don't have the need or space for consumer goods like we do in the uk. 

To put it in perspective, owning more than 2 guitars and 1 amp is almost unheard of, unless your an EXPAT

Chalky

dtr;1132765" said:

Chalky said:

@dtr - the youth unemployment is very real for those caught up in it.





I agree, but youth unemployment has been coming down significantly in the last 5 years...

To me it looks like that graph is going in the direction I'd want to see continue. (Got it from here by the way - http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05871)

it doesn't sound like you're AGAINST youth unemployment almost halving over the last five years, so I'm struggling to see what the basis of your argument is.

The comment about youth unemployment is about the EU southern states not the UK. See the entries just above my comment.

Edit - Just saw Fretwired clarified the same point.

paulnb57

Ask yourself this - do you want the Euro?

If the answer is no then leave now as our influence will diminish overtime and we'll be shackled to economically stagnant bloc that increasingly can't make decisions. The real power is in the Euro zone. We are not members, so when the economic rules are being discussed we have to leave the room. The EU is aiming for closing fiscal union (harmonisation of tax rates, budgets and so forth) and political union (EU army, seat at the security council, foreign minister) - I don't want that either.

If you want the Euro then campaign to join the Euro zone. At least we'd have a seat at the top table. But look at Europe. Greece has been treated appallingly and people are in poverty. Youth unemployment is running at 25% in some countries and growth is stagnant. Countries with the Euro can't react to the economic problems in their country as they're shackled to an inflexible currency/economic model. I don't want the UK to end up like Greece or Spain.

To most people the EU means two things. freedom of movement and free trade. If we had those elements then my guess is most people would be happy. I'm for a free trade deal that allows us to cut our own deals with other countries and I'm not fussed about freedom of movement - I'm happy to keep it with some basic protection. I think the benefits of free movement outweigh the downsides.

I want our parliament to set our laws and our courts to uphold the law along with the ECHR. The growth in the world economy will be in Asia - an independent UK can prosper IMHO.

The EU is not all bad, but the above are my major reasons for wanting to leave.

Well said, mirrors my thoughts, I'm glad we are leaving, it may be a rocky road, but it will at least be in our control...

scrumhalf

Let's not glorify Switzerland.

This is a country whose bank vaults are stuffed with the ill-gotten gains of countless despicable regimes over the years.

Chalky

It is simply misleading to think that the EU is economically sound or politically stable.

Modulus_Amps

Chalky said:

It is simply misleading to think that the EU is economically sound or politically stable.

well we are going to see just how stable they are now, one day the Germans say movement of people is not negotiable, the next day the French say everything is on the table, they don't even know what is going on...

Fretwired

scrumhalf said:

Let's not glorify Switzerland.

This is a country whose bank vaults are stuffed with the ill-gotten gains of countless despicable regimes over the years.

And ours aren't ... :-)

Been to the British museum? Blenheim Palace? We spent 400 years raping and pillaging the world. And London is the world's capital for money laundering .. I don't think we can criticise Switzerland.

professorben

paulnb57;1132994" said:

Ask yourself this - do you want the Euro?



If the answer is no then leave now as our influence will diminish overtime and we'll be shackled to economically stagnant bloc that increasingly can't make decisions. The real power is in the Euro zone. We are not members, so when the economic rules are being discussed we have to leave the room. The EU is aiming for closing fiscal union (harmonisation of tax rates, budgets and so forth) and political union (EU army, seat at the security council, foreign minister) - I don't want that either.



If you want the Euro then campaign to join the Euro zone. At least we'd have a seat at the top table. But look at Europe. Greece has been treated appallingly and people are in poverty. Youth unemployment is running at 25% in some countries and growth is stagnant. Countries with the Euro can't react to the economic problems in their country as they're shackled to an inflexible currency/economic model. I don't want the UK to end up like Greece or Spain.



To most people the EU means two things. freedom of movement and free trade. If we had those elements then my guess is most people would be happy. I'm for a free trade deal that allows us to cut our own deals with other countries and I'm not fussed about freedom of movement - I'm happy to keep it with some basic protection. I think the benefits of free movement outweigh the downsides.



I want our parliament to set our laws and our courts to uphold the law along with the ECHR. The growth in the world economy will be in Asia - an independent UK can prosper IMHO.



The EU is not all bad, but the above are my major reasons for wanting to leave.














Well said, mirrors my thoughts, I'm glad we are leaving, it may be a rocky road, but it will at least be in our control...

I can understand that view, but just think having control but limited options is worse than limited control but open options.

DLM

digitalscream said:

professorben said:

Seriously if I lose my gf I'll never get another that hot again, I'm seriously punching above my weight there!!!!!

For the record, he's underselling it here.

http://www.jou.ufl.edu/pubs/onb/f03/images/czech.jpg

http://onlinemoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/borat-thumbs-up.jpg

lloyd

Rocker said:

@lloyd ever country has "unelected officials". They are called Civil Servants. Do you really believe that the Government has any real input to the Budget for example? Slightly influencing the thrust of the Budget is the best that Government can hope for. Civil Servants draw it up and the Government takes responsibility for it. The EU is no different.

@Rocker I know that, but this is a thread about the EU, and my post was about the EU.

If there was a thread about what I didn't like about Westminster then it could well be a lot longer list, certain aspects of the HoL I don't like, some of it I don't mind, I'm not against unelected positions in Government, I'm against certain positions within the EU that are unelected. 

The Presidency for example in the EU is one I'd take out, while in the HoL I'd remove all the religious leaders seats.

Teetonetal

Fretwired said:

scrumhalf said:

Let's not glorify Switzerland.

This is a country whose bank vaults are stuffed with the ill-gotten gains of countless despicable regimes over the years.

And ours aren't ... :-)

Been to the British museum? Blenheim Palace? We spent 400 years raping and pillaging the world. And London is the world's capital for money laundering .. I don't think we can criticize Switzerland.

Damn right. Britain has a lot to answer for.

JezWynd

and chocolate, mustn't forget the chocolate.

Just_chillin

professorben said:

What was so wrong with being in the EU anyway?
I mean I've not been affected negatively in anyway that I can see by being in the EU.

I'm of the opinion that you stand a better chance of influencing change from within the organisation than out of it. On the other side, the leave campaign also have valid arguments e.g. uncontrolled immigration. Hopefully the country will be able to regain control over this and many other issues. Only time will tell how things will eventually pan out.

Modulus_Amps

Just_chillin said:

professorben said:

What was so wrong with being in the EU anyway?
I mean I've not been affected negatively in anyway that I can see by being in the EU.

I'm of the opinion that you stand a better chance of influencing change within the organisation than out of it. On the other side, the leave campaign also have valid arguments e.g. uncontrolled immigration. Hopefully the country will be able to regain control over this and many other issues. Only time will tell how things will eventually pan out.

That only happens if our top representatives push for change, and they did not, so the public have forced change.

Give Brexit a few more months, maybe even a year or so and there will be change in the EU, the second largest economy just left the building......I think the next French election is one to watch out for.

thermionic

professorben said:

.
Seriously if I lose my gf I'll never get another that hot again, I'm seriously punching above my weight there!!!!!

This boast is useless without pics.

professorben

thermionic;1133079" said:

professorben said:

.

Seriously if I lose my gf I'll never get another that hot again, I'm seriously punching above my weight there!!!!!





This boast is useless without pics.

Sorry I'm looking but I don't seem to have any non X rated ones.....

DLM

#humblebrag

Honestly, I don't think Ms. Professorben has anything to worry about, immigration caps only apply to mingers:

https://youtu.be/h0gqn2F_Uu4?t=45

paulmapp8306

professorben said:

What was so wrong with being in the EU anyway?
I mean I've not been affected negatively in anyway that I can see by being in the EU.

Different Opinions from different people.

For me it wasnt so much where we were - its where we were going.  Further and further into political union .  Then there was the loss of control of our national boarders (not anti immigration, but no control of immigration from the EU).  The former is much more important to me than the latter - and the main reason for my vote.