Alternative title shocker: "And then there were none".

octatonic

Did anyone else know this?

I was watching a film adaptation of Agatha Christie's "And then there were none" and did a bit of googling after the fact only to find out that the original title of the book was 'Ten Little N******'.

The book was written in 1939.

Seems ridiculous and very weird that was considered OK.

starwarsnosebleed

There was similar stuff considered 'ok' in the 70's/80's that aired on the BBC that i cant believe was allowed.

ICBM

Yes. It was perfectly acceptable in 1939.

If I remember correctly, the 1960s film of it was called Ten Little Indians as well - based on the equally racist American version of the nursery rhyme. (ie Native Americans.)

octatonic

ICBM said:

Yes. It was perfectly acceptable in 1939.

If I remember correctly, the 1960s film of it was called Ten Little Indians as well - based on the equally racist American version of the nursery rhyme. (ie Native Americans.)

Yup, the same text.

It was changed form N***** to Indians, then to 'And then there were none'.

skankdelvar

Yes. It's morphed from the N word to Indians (also soldiers and bottles IIRC) finally to the Genesis-influenced 'And then there were none'.

Surprisingly, it seems most non English-speaking countries use the title Ten Little Negroes or Ten Little Black Men

Less associative resonance when rendered in another language, I suppose. Odd.

Paul_C

I've got an copy of the book with the original title which was probably bought late 60s / early 70s

If you listen to some of the Goon Shows (1950s) there are all sorts of gags that would never be broadcast now.

The first CD I listened to today started off with All The Way From Memphis (1973) which uses a word I wince at (and which has been changed in recent releases).

It's been very recently that the UK moved away from casual racism, sadly - and I still feel sad that your favourite forum member's name is acceptable, no matter how innocent its meaning to him (and others).

fretmeister

Never read Mark Twain either then?

cj73

Wasn't there a very 70s film adaptation of that set in an Egyptian hotel starring Oliver Reid?

octatonic

Paul_C said:

I've got an copy of the book with the original title which was probably bought late 60s / early 70s

If you listen to some of the Goon Shows (1950s) there are all sorts of gags that would never be broadcast now.

The first CD I listened to today started off with All The Way From Memphis (1973) which uses a word I wince at (and which has been changed in recent releases).

It's been very recently that the UK moved away from casual racism, sadly - and I still feel sad that your favourite forum member's name is acceptable, no matter how innocent its meaning to him (and others).

I always assumed he was referring to an Australian brand of crisps (chips):

Yes, this is actually a thing.

EricTheWeary

starwarsnosebleed said:

There was similar stuff considered 'ok' in the 70's/80's that aired on the BBC that i cant believe was allowed.

The other week we ended up watching a Good Old Days on BBC4 ( no, I don't no why either) with the various young people who lodge for free in my house and I said about the Black and White Minstrel Show. We found a clip on YouTube and they thought it was a spoof, not a show that ran on prime time BBC for twenty years ( until 1978). 

For a bit of racism wrapped in historical clothing Google the Labour in Vain pub in Stone - I could spuriously link this it to being an area with a very high portion of Leave voters  if I was feeling cheeky. 

lloyd

The dog in Damnbusters was called Nigger. Could have been another RAF film though? Was acceptable back then, doesn't make it right. I had a 1976 Dandy annual and Desperate Dan met a black guy called Sambo which isn't great but was drawn basically like a black minstrel monkey. We've moved on for the better, but still some way to go.

EricTheWeary

lloyd said:

The dog in Damnbusters was called Nigger. Could have been another RAF film though? Was acceptable back then, doesn't make it right. I had a 1976 Dandy annual and Desperate Dan met a black guy called Sambo which isn't great but was drawn basically like a black minstrel monkey. We've moved on for the better, but still some way to go.

African people in the Tintin cartoons and the original comics were shocking stereotypes. 

ICBM

lloyd said:

The dog in Damnbusters was called Nigger. Could have been another RAF film though?

That was the actual name of Guy Gibson's dog.

I'm not ever sure "acceptable" is the right word - it was simply considered normal, and I think in most cases was not intended in a racist way.

I had a 'golliwog' toy in the very late 1960s or the early 70s, and I don't think that was thought of as racist either, even by adults. I never realised it was originally meant to represent a black man until years later after I'd forgotten all about it. Robertson's Marmalade actually used a Golliwog symbol until 2001.

octatonic

ICBM said:

I had a 'golliwog' toy in the very late 1960s or the early 70s, and I don't think that was thought of as racist either, even by adults. I never realised it was originally meant to represent a black man until years later after I'd forgotten all about it. 

I had one of those too.

We called it 'Golly'.

I had no idea of the meaning of course.

lloyd

ICBM;1133872" said:

lloyd said:

The dog in Damnbusters was called Nigger. Could have been another RAF film though?





That was the actual name of Guy Gibson's dog.

I'm not ever sure "acceptable" is the right word - it was simply considered normal, and I think in most cases was not intended in a racist way.

I had a 'golliwog' toy in the very late 1960s or the early 70s, and I don't think that was thought of as racist either, even by adults. I never realised it was originally meant to represent a black man until years later after I'd forgotten all about it. Robertson's Marmalade actually used a Golliwog symbol until 2001.

Aye it was historically accurate for sure.

Talking of Robinsons golliwogs , my (black) mate had a knitted sweater of one dressed as Santa that he always wore at Xmas, but might have been an ironic thing.

I never knew that they were racist or meant to be black people until he wore it, which probably points to my niaevity more than anything else perhaps

jpttaylor

It was fairly commonplace in it's time - my grandparents were telling me a while ago when the N word was used to describe a particular shade of colour.

When I was about 5/6, I had a VHS of old Heckle and Jeckle cartoons that used to reduce me to tears. I watched one of them back a while ago and realised just how many jokes were directed implicitly at minorities. Ditto the crows in Dumbo which are horrible parodies. Both are horrible by modern standards (and wrong obviously) but were perfectly acceptable of their era.

lloyd

jpttaylor said:

It was fairly commonplace in it's time - my grandparents were telling me a while ago when the N word was used to describe a particular shade of colour.

When I was about 5/6, I had a VHS of old Heckle and Jeckle cartoons that used to reduce me to tears. I watched one of them back a while ago and realised just how many jokes were directed implicitly at minorities. Ditto the crows in Dumbo which are horrible parodies. Both are horrible by modern standards (and wrong obviously) but were perfectly acceptable of their era.

Are the crows in Dumbo that bad? It's a long time since I've seen it but are they not just stereotypes/characatures like the birds in Jungle Book? I'm asking because I don't know not to pick a fight, but think that sometimes we can be over sensitive/apologetic IMO.

ICBM

lloyd said:

Are the crows in Dumbo that bad? It's a long time since I've seen it but are they not just stereotypes/characatures like the birds in Jungle Book?

I think they're 'deep south' stereotypes that are pretty racist really, although it's a while since I've seen it.

The vultures in The Jungle Book are just taking the piss out of the Beatles, and probably Liverpudlians in general. The Indians in the original Peter Pan are pretty close to a racist portrayal though. I think there are other examples in the old Disney cartoons, but I can't remember for sure.

Paul_C

If we managed to homogenise human beings into one "race" with one eye colour and one hair colour we'd still find other ways to separate "us" from "them" and use that as a way to belittle "them", sadly.

EricTheWeary

lloyd said:

ICBM;1133872" said:

lloyd said:

The dog in Damnbusters was called Nigger. Could have been another RAF film though?





That was the actual name of Guy Gibson's dog.

I'm not ever sure "acceptable" is the right word - it was simply considered normal, and I think in most cases was not intended in a racist way.

I had a 'golliwog' toy in the very late 1960s or the early 70s, and I don't think that was thought of as racist either, even by adults. I never realised it was originally meant to represent a black man until years later after I'd forgotten all about it. Robertson's Marmalade actually used a Golliwog symbol until 2001.

Aye it was historically accurate for sure.

Talking of Robinsons golliwogs , my (black) mate had a knitted sweater of one dressed as Santa that he always wore at Xmas, but might have been an ironic thing.

I never knew that they were racist or meant to be black people until he wore it, which probably points to my niaevity more than anything else perhaps

My cousin used to collect all the golliwog figurines, I think you had to collect and send off jam jar labels and she had a whole band of them. There's a thing in one of the episodes of Extras about Golly and I think it was only then it occurred to me that they might be seen as offensive - I'd just seen them as an odd toy like kids have bears and giraffes and random stuff. 

lloyd

ICBM said:

lloyd said:

Are the crows in Dumbo that bad? It's a long time since I've seen it but are they not just stereotypes/characatures like the birds in Jungle Book?

I think they're 'deep south' stereotypes that are pretty racist really, although it's a while since I've seen it.

The vultures in The Jungle Book are just taking the piss out of the Beatles, and probably Liverpudlians in general. The Indians in the original Peter Pan are pretty close to a racist portrayal though. I think there are other examples in the old Disney cartoons, but I can't remember for sure.

I've just watched a clip of the crows in Dumbo, pretty quickly but there we go. I think that they're just stereotypes personally, there are some in Beauty and the Beast if I remember rightly-stuck up Englishman, rude Frenchman etc, if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander IMO. I'm not offended by the crows at all. Is Foghorn Leghorn racist? He's just a white stereotype of a similar area and age as the Dumbo crows, they're not painted in (from what I saw) a negative light.