When is "Vintage" actually vintage?

ChuckManual

A comment in a thread elsewhere on tFB, about the legitimacy of 70's Fenders being called "vintage", has got me thinking...

The other day I acquired a '94 Telecaster. Nobody in their right mind would call it vintage - it's just a 90's Tele.

But...

When I bought my first guitar - in 1979 - a '59 Les Paul would have been, comparatively, exactly two years younger than the Tele I bought last week ...and a 1959 Les Paul was, very definitely (trust me, I was there), already considered "vintage" back then.

So, why is "vintage" (in guitar age-defining terms) less a definite point in time where an item is considered old enough to carry that tag (unlike in the comic book industry, for instance, where there are rigidly defined eras, or "ages" (Golden Age, Silver Age, etc) that are immutable, but definitely helpful) and more an easy/lazy (but sort-of helpful) epithet for an ever-changing and probably permanently intangible set of conditions about the credentials of an otherwise undeniably "old" instrument?

Who made that rule? And why the hell does it still apply?! What does everyone consider "Vintage" to mean anyway? Pre-CBS? Pre-Norlin? Pre-theFretBoard?!?!

(I think we can all agree it's pre-theFretBoard)

This isn't supposed to be a deep and meaningful - I'd just like some answers, if there are any.

A heavy pub lunch will do that to you...

GavRichList

Depends on the maker I think. Even then there are caveats... I'd say pre-CBS is obviously peak Fender, but it'd be tough to argue anything say up to 75, maybe even 79 isn't vintage... I mean, it's getting on for 40 years. 

Teetonetal

Also probably depends on desirability, old does not equal vintage. Vintage implies some thing more

richardhomer

To use the wine analogy - some wines from some years are highly prized - some aren't.

My '63 Strat was 20 years old when I bought it - it was magnificent - and very much considered 'vintage' at the time.

My '94 American Standard Strat is now 22 years old - and is neither magnificent, nor vintage....

Rainbow_Brown

Rarity plays into it too, I suppose, as well as desirability and the undeniable mystique of guitars from the dawn of rock.

There are far fewer surviving, playable guitars from 50+ years ago than there are from any time less than 50 years ago. And that's compounded by the fact that Fender/Gibson/whoever was pumping out way less product in the late 50s/early 60s than, say, the late 80s/early 90s.

p90fool

In spirit, it means before the mid-70s, when manufacturing quality of practically everything nosedived for about eight years,

In practice it's whatever people want to call stuff, in relation the age of the person who's reading it.

To me, a 1980 Matsumoku Aria is a serviceable piece of old junk I can mod until there's nothing left and it goes in the bin. To a 20-year-old it's a "really cool vintage guitar".

It's hard to explain to them why it isn't without sounding like an old grouch.

timhulio

Rainbow_Brown said:

There are far fewer surviving, playable guitars from 50+ years ago than there are from any time less than 50 years ago. 

I dunno. I bet there are more vintage Strats around now than there have ever been ;-)

TTony

ChuckManual said:

when is "vintage" actually vintage

When someone can be persuaded to pay more for it, purely because someone else has applied that description to it.



It's about rose-tinted perception (old is better), and marketing to drive up demand.  

Having owned a "vintage" car, I long ago decided that I preferred something better made, more reliable & comfortable, and - if I wanted to enjoy looking at vintage cars - I'd get more enjoyment looking at someone else's (and avoiding the worry).

Newer isn't always better, particularly when it's been made to a price point rather than a quality criteria.  But then plenty of "vintage" stuff was made to a price point back in its day too.


  

guitars4you

Maybe easier to determine was isn't vintage - I certainly don't buy into 'it is now 30 years old so it is vintage' policy - as on that basis everything will be vintage one day I can't see how you can ever put a USA Strat Standard in to that category

It can't be defined by build quality alone, as many modern guitars are superior in build quality, certainly the likes of PRS for example

It can't be defined by how many have been made, purely on its own, as again there are models and makes that are part of a smaller run than Strats from 1960-1965 - Travis Bean for example

Again it can't be defined by how well it plays and how well it sounds as a) subjective anyway and b) certainly regarding playing performance, many new instruments possess a more slick and user friendly playing performance - Custom Shop Strat v many old Strats for example

Maybe I can suggest that vintage holds a connotation that goes beyond merely how old something is in years - of course pre 1970 is an easy tag to apply - after that there are of course grey areas - By the time we get to mid late 70's I'm not sure anything can be classed as vintage - but cool and/or collectible  can still apply ie a Travis Bean or Bond - but they are not vintage IMO - Vintage does lend itself to the big USA Guitar Companies based on heritage, used by our guitar hero's and part of an era (obviously based on vintage guitars as vintage amps and pedals covers UK as well for example), but then where does that place early Burns Guitars, or some of the wacky cool guitars from Japan and Europe built in the 50's and 60's

Interesting that Reverb do apply a 30 year old tag as the determination of vintage - but that is clearly wrong to me and many others 

ICBM

p90fool said:

To me, a 1980 Matsumoku Aria is a serviceable piece of old junk I can mod until there's nothing left and it goes in the bin.

Sadly I did, with my 1984 Matsumoku Aria. I have an identical replacement now, but although it is very cool and will *not* be getting modded (apart from getting rid of the stock pickups, which were crap), I agree with you - it's not really 'vintage'.

The same with amps - my first amp, in 1985, was a 1964 Centurion Hi-Fi Five. It was vintage then, both in sound and in age - 21 years. My 1994 Mesa Trem-o-verb is now 22 years old and is quite definitely not vintage - it's almost the definition of a 'modern' amp in fact.

Sassafras

Not this old potato, I mean this vintage potato again.

I prefer the term 'Golden Era' guitars to vintage guitars. Generally guitars made in the 50s and early 60s.

Bygone_Tones

I agree with both posts above by TTony and guitars4you.

It is not about counting an amount in years and then you can get the green light to call it vintage. For me 'vintage' means it is from the golden era of whatever it is, so needs to have that extra something special about it, that makes it more collectable than its modern equivalent. eg made in Japan, over made in China, or pre-"norlin era" for Gibsons etc.

Also whole heartedly agree with TTonys post about sellers wanting to put rose tinted spectacles on buyers by using the word 'vintage' instead of 'old'. It gives them license to harp on about how "Hendrix used them" or whatever other "holy grail" nonsense they want to write, instead of actually stating whether the thing even works or not.

scrumhalf

It's "old" if you're buying, and "vintage" if you're selling.

Sassafras

And "rare". Don't forget "rare". If that doesn't sell your old tat, nothing will.

musicman100

Sassafras said:

Not this old potato, I mean this vintage potato again.

I prefer the term 'Golden Era' guitars to vintage guitars. Generally guitars made in the 50s and early 60s.

fully agree.
the term vintage is used far to loosely n generally to try n bulk the price up.
I'm no expert on fender or Gibson, but certainly with gretsch guitars the purist would call later 60s/early70s Baldwin era gretsch guitars as non vintage as in the golden era and are a lot less desirable. But then I have a 72 country gentleman that's as good as my 60s ones so I guess it's very subjective only the quality. 
Regards 

TTony

Sassafras said:

And "rare". Don't forget "rare". If that doesn't sell your old tat, nothing will.

I love it when I see "rare".

It's generally used to justify a hopeful price.

Whereas it should more accurately indicate that "it's rare because everyone realised it was shit when it was launched and nobody bought any".  And it's still shit.

musicman100

TTony said:

Sassafras said:

And "rare". Don't forget "rare". If that doesn't sell your old tat, nothing will.

I love it when I see "rare".

It's generally used to justify a hopeful price.

Whereas it should more accurately indicate that "it's rare because everyone realised it was shit when it was launched and nobody bought any".  And it's still shit.

Lol

octatonic

richardhomer said:

To use the wine analogy - some wines from some years are highly prized - some aren't.

My '63 Strat was 20 years old when I bought it - it was magnificent - and very much considered 'vintage' at the time.

My '94 American Standard Strat is now 22 years old - and is neither magnificent, nor vintage....

This nails it.

At this point in time I don't think of anything made after 1969 as 'vintage'.
I've seen it said that anything 25 years or older is a 'vintage guitar' but that means 1990 now.
Sorry but 1980's guitars are simply not vintage guitars in the way a '62 strat is a vintage guitar.

Limehouse_Blues

Vintage is almost a synonym for collectible

HAL9000

Does manufacturing technology come into this? i.e. Pre CNC, implying a higher degree of craftsmanship.

Sporky

HAL9000 said:

Does manufacturing technology come into this? i.e. Pre CNC, implying a higher degree of craftsmanship.

I'm not convinced there's more craftsmanship in running a multihead pattern router over a template than there is in running a CNC machine.

That said, I think public perception will differ - most people haven't built guitars both ways, and seem to think that you chuck a piece of timber in one end of a CNC machine and a complete assembled and painted guitar comes out of the other end... there was even a guitar builder who posted here who seemed to believe that was the case.

On the original question, I think 'vintage' probably means 50s or 60s.