When is "Vintage" actually vintage?

BowynMadley

According to George Gruhn, pre 70 is vintage regarding the large manufacturers. He explains that due to Brazilian rosewood being no longer available and most guitars being cut and assembled by machine the quality just isn't there. Personally I don't go along with the 'vintage' rhubarb. If it's a guitar it's a good guitar regardless of age. IMHO

CloudNine

richardhomer said:

To use the wine analogy - some wines from some years are highly prized - some aren't.

My '63 Strat was 20 years old when I bought it - it was magnificent - and very much considered 'vintage' at the time.

My '94 American Standard Strat is now 22 years old - and is neither magnificent, nor vintage....

Richard's tales of the long lost 63 Strat are certainly getting very old, but are they vintage? 

Seriously though, just thinking about how a pre-CBS Strat was perceived in 1983. I was too young to remember, but guessing they were considered old and somewhat desirable to certain people, but almost in a way that 70's Strats are to us nowadays. Could be wrong. People in the 80's were quite into new stuff, and there was some serious bad taste going on in every aspect of life, was there a real desire for these guitars? I thought the serious reverence only kicked in in the 90's & 00's.

Anyway, I always just think that over 30 years is vintage. Whether it is shit or not, would be a separate assessment.

p90fool

In 1983 vintage Strats were quite desirable, they generally cost more than a brand new one and were definitely not regarded in the same way as 70s ones are today. 

70s Strats were held in utter contempt in the 70s, we bought old ones because you couldn't buy a good new one, which is why the price of the old ones started to creep up. 

Late 70s Strats can never be regarded as vintage, simply because they started the whole vintage phenomenon by being garbage. 

richardhomer

CloudNine said:

Richard's tales of the long lost 63 Strat are certainly getting very old, but are they vintage? 

Seriously though, just thinking about how a pre-CBS Strat was perceived in 1983. I was too young to remember, but guessing they were considered old and somewhat desirable to certain people, but almost in a way that 70's Strats are to us nowadays. Could be wrong. People in the 80's were quite into new stuff, and there was some serious bad taste going on in every aspect of life, was there a real desire for these guitars? I thought the serious reverence only kicked in in the 90's & 00's.

None taken....

But no, you're wrong - vintage (which at the time generally meant pre-65) guitars in the 80s were highly prized, as most new guitars from America were rubbish. This was before the Fender Custom Shop, before PRS became a manufacturer rather than a builder, before Anderson, etc.

The difference was that pre-CBS Strats were still a relatively common sight in shops. They were typically 50-100% more expensive than a new one - so quite a stretch for most players - but it was possible to buy one. And qualitatively, the price differential was justifiable, if not always manageable.

Now of course, prices tend to be stratospheric - and those guitars have  become the preserve of collectors, more than players. And that's why I suspect most people have an issue with 'vintage' as a concept.

As I've said before, not all old guitars are good (even from the 'Golden Era') - but most of the greatest guitars I've played are old.

ICBM

HAL9000 said:

Does manufacturing technology come into this? i.e. Pre CNC, implying a higher degree of craftsmanship.

No.

Compare a new Custom Shop Fender (CNC parts, hand assembled) to a 70s Fender (jig-follower parts, hand thrown together) and it's easy to see which produces the higher quality guitar and even the more 'mojo'.

That's not to say you can't make a high quality guitar using a jig follower or entirely by hand.

impmann

In the late 80s, pre-CBS Strats were seen as being a premium guitar - and folks would pay more to buy one. People weren't quite so anal about it though...

Plus there were far more player's spec guitars. I worked on a 59 Strat that had a set of EMGs, big frets and a Kahler trem, for example. It wasn't "that" unusual - as it was just an old guitar. I guarantee that guitar is now "totally original"...

Folks have always gone drippy in the nether regions over late 50s flame tops... yet I remember being offered a 54 Goldtop for £1250 in the mid 90s. Makes no sense to me, but then I've never seen the attraction in a sunburst Les Paul.

Old guitars sound 'better'? Old guitars sound 'different'? Well... *some* and *some*. And frankly its not light and day like some would have you believe. Personally, I think we currently live in a 'Golden Era' of guitar making - there are so few "bad" guitars, production quality is super-high, costs are low (comparatively) and there is a lot of choice. Then factor in the incredible choice of high quality pickup winders in the UK, plus a huge aftermarket of upgrade (yet classic looking) parts - I still maintain you can build a guitar that can trounce an old one in every measurable area, except that it won't have the "mojo-fairy-dust-feel-the-history" bollocks that seems to inspire guitarists that have one foot in the past.

thebreeze

guitars4you said:

Maybe easier to determine was isn't vintage - I certainly don't buy into 'it is now 30 years old so it is vintage' policy - as on that basis everything will be vintage one day I can't see how you can ever put a USA Strat Standard in to that category

Although weren't all Strats, say pre-CBS, USA Strat Standards?

octatonic said:

Sorry but 1980's guitars are simply not vintage guitars in the way a '62 strat is a vintage guitar.

Would you apply this to a well used Strat that was used by Gilmour to write/tour The Wall or Knopfler Sultans of Swing etc.?

guitars4you

latching on to comments above from @richardhomer  and @p90fool  - I clearly recall a selection (note the word selection) of pre-CBS Strats in my Dad's old shop in Derby for sale at £375 - I brought one- At the time a new USA Strat with case was about the same price - As Richard Homer states above, you could regularly see them for sale in many stores - However, somewhere around 74-78 the buzz started to grow that old guitars were better than new - So when you look at the statement in more detail it is now clear to see that many Fender, Gibson and Martin Guitars made in the 50's and 60's had something going for them that the 'new mass produced' guitars lacked - As such prices started to increase and give birth to the 'vintage market' - at the time only guitar players brought into this phenomena, before investors latched on 

Once USA builders realised were they had gone wrong, through Custom Shop programmes they started to build quality replicas from that golden era - As such I no longer believe that old is better than new - But truly believe a good guitar is a good guitar and a bad guitar is a bad guitar, regardless of make/model/age - Just that a vintage guitar can be bad but still valuable -

I also agree with @impmann  that today we live in a 'golden era' regarding build quality and playing performance and many guitars today are loaded with magical qualities - It has been said before that not all old guitars are good

impmann

Playing devils advocate for a half a second - it has been said that the inconsistencies in "golden era" 1950s/60s guitars is part of what makes them great. Some are excellent... some are not quite so and some are...

Todays guitars are much more consistent - therefore probably there are going to be more great guitars in the future. As these guitars age and mellow and do all those things we want 'vintage' guitars to do that only time can do, perhaps in 50 years time a bunch of dullards will be debating how much better 2016 guitars are relative to their 2066 examples...

guitars4you

impmann said:

Playing devils advocate for a half a second - it has been said that the inconsistencies in "golden era" 1950s/60s guitars is part of what makes them great. Some are excellent... some are not quite so and some are...

Todays guitars are much more consistent - therefore probably there are going to be more great guitars in the future. As these guitars age and mellow and do all those things we want 'vintage' guitars to do that only time can do, perhaps in 50 years time a bunch of dullards will be debating how much better 2016 guitars are relative to their 2066 examples...

I won't be around to see if this true but I hear what you are saying

Skipped

impmann said:

 I still maintain you can build a guitar that can trounce an old one in every measurable area, except that it won't have the "mojo-fairy-dust-feel-the-history" bollocks that seems to inspire guitarists that have one foot in the past.

The choices made by Classical Musicians who will make a very significant investment in an old instrument which is heavily repaired, has no obvious "collectable" value, has no logo or markings which can be waved in your face when the tv camera zooms in on them, would suggest that you are wrong about the mojo-fairy-dust-feel-the-history bollocks.

These are intelligent, educated, discerning individuals who are just starting out on a long career which may or may not be highly lucrative. How do you explain these huge buying decisions? 

Sporky

Skipped said:

Classical Musicians

[snip]

How do you explain these huge buying decisions? 

You don't get into a serious orchestra with a nice shiny new Yamaha.

There is an expectation that you'll have an instrument a couple of hundred years old with a hint of provenance, and ideally made by one of the right makers.

Same mojo-bullhonky as with guitarists, effectively.

Skipped

Sporky said:

You don't get into a serious orchestra with a nice shiny new Yamaha.

There is an expectation that you'll have an instrument a couple of hundred years old with a hint of provenance, and ideally made by one of the right makers.

Same mojo-bullhonky as with guitarists, effectively.

If that is the case....then once they have established a reputation.....and a rock solid career.....they will dump the highly repaired 300 year old Violin for something that needs much less maintenance won't they?

And if they don't?


Another question.
If you were to discover that Paul McCartney, or Johnny Marr, or Joe Bonamassa are in the habit of playing a Golden Era vintage guitar when they are completely alone......in a windowless room.......they are playing a vintage guitar when no one is watching......you would then conclude......what?
That they are mentally ill??

impmann

Skipped said:

Sporky said:

You don't get into a serious orchestra with a nice shiny new Yamaha.

There is an expectation that you'll have an instrument a couple of hundred years old with a hint of provenance, and ideally made by one of the right makers.

Same mojo-bullhonky as with guitarists, effectively.

If that is the case....then once they have established a reputation.....and a rock solid career.....they will dump the highly repaired 300 year old Violin for something that needs much less maintenance won't they?

And if they don't?


Another question.
If you were to discover that Paul McCartney, or Johnny Marr, or Joe Bonamassa are in the habit of playing a Golden Era vintage guitar when they are completely alone......in a windowless room.......they are playing a vintage guitar when no one is watching......you would then conclude......what?
That they are mentally ill??

Johnny Marr plays modern guitars
Paul McCartney has played all sorts over the years - WAL, Yamaha, Fender... and when he bought his Hofner it wasn't a vintage guitar... possibly a bad example, there...
Joe B plays all sorts - not just vintage.


A good example is Eric Clapton... arguably one of the first people who actively looked out "vintage" guitars back in the day and was highly critical in interviews of 1970s and early 80s guitars. He then sold all his vintage Strats, Gibsons etc and only plays modern stuff these days.

I'm not saying old guitars are bad... but I'm also not saying new guitars are either. Buy what you like. But buy them based on merit, not bragging rights about having a guitar from "x" year.

peteri

This is interesting to me. 

Ive been playing since 83 and remember the prices discussed here - much to my frustration, I could imagine looking birthday money and maybe Christmas to get one for example. 

In fact my first real amp was a 62/3 bassman I paid £40 for! (Might actually have been 25 I forget), it's easy to forget the internet influence. This came from a disco equipment shop who had no way of researching and no access to a market outside the town. 

I have a 66 strat and a 72 les Paul custom. Both of which I consider vintage. I know they're cbs/Norlin era but both made before big mass production changes were introduced and they play differently. 

Ive played a lot of custom shop strats (well about ten!) this year. All we're really good guitars, and one of the ten was nearly as good as my 66. 

And i realised that (for me) the neck was the difference. The old neck has been hand worn in a way the new guitars just haven't. And also the pickups (magnet decay) are softer and warmer whilst almost more powerful because of that. 

So absolutely in ten to 20 years of playing I fully believe custom shop will be so close to be the better alternative and they're close already. 

But it for me comes down to I just like the feel of the older ones, and I think this is because I'm reaping the benefit of wear and tear now along with better seasoning on the wood 

conversely - i tried 3 or 4 72/3 strats and they were awful, and I think that is partly the wear hasn't happened because of the plastic finish (which also changes the sound). 

I remember in the 80s 'vintage' amps and pedals being common and not that respected. Witness the school friend who destroyed a 60s vox ac when he took it apart to see how it works, or early mxr pedals which would be easy to get (and fuzz etc)

now we have amazing amps and effects, and for 1500£ insane quality guitars of any hue. 

But some like older, myself included, just because 

which works for me 

Skipped

impmann said:

Johnny Marr plays modern guitars
Paul McCartney has played all sorts over the years - WAL, Yamaha, Fender... and when he bought his Hofner it wasn't a vintage guitar... possibly a bad example, there...
Joe B plays all sorts - not just vintage.

That seems to suggest that you think they are not bothered.

Johnny Marr plays both.
McCartney plays vintage Epiphone and Gibson guitars.
Count the vintage guitars on the recent Joe Bonamassa live video.

Are you suggesting that Joe Bonamassa is not really bothered about old or new?

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why Joe Bonamassa is buying a second freaking plane ticket so that he can gig with a vintage guitar?? If he is not really bothered......

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/t31.0-8/12362969_938183162929037_2917382186547735009_o.jpg

SteveRobinson

Skipped said:

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why Joe Bonamassa is buying a second freaking plane ticket so that he can gig with a vintage guitar?? If he is not really bothered......

It's part of his brand. He's expected to play a vintage guitar and a certain section of the audience would be disappointed if he didn't. He'd probably sound the same playing a new one.

impmann

Round and round in circles we go.

I'm out.

Skipped

impmann said:

Round and round in circles we go.

I'm out.

You are out? 

It was your mojo-fairy-dust-feel-the-history bollocks comment that we were discussing.

The mojo-fairy-dust-feel-the-history bollocks that Jo Bonamassa is displaying even when he is completely alone with his guitar of choice.

musicman100

SteveRobinson said:

Skipped said:

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why Joe Bonamassa is buying a second freaking plane ticket so that he can gig with a vintage guitar?? If he is not really bothered......

It's part of his brand. He's expected to play a vintage guitar and a certain section of the audience would be disappointed if he didn't. He'd probably sound the same playing a new one.

Argee mate. And he can afford them.
I don't get why people become obsessed with vintage guitars n sound. 
There's a good interview I watched on youtube with jo B and he basically said that he buys vintage guitars because he can and they have become apart of his act but he sounds the same no matter what guitar he plays.