The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

thomasw88

Jalapeno said:

Fretwired said:

The Tory manifesto is lightweight; the NHS is in crisis, .....

I agree.  But the NHS as currently organised will *always* be in crisis - they're saddled with all that off-sheet PFI debt from way back (I won't blame Gordon Brown for all of it) - that's where all the bloody money goes, servicing that debt.  Whoever is in power will have to keep pouring record levels of funding into the NHS just to stand still. Labour just spouts the Magic Money Unicorn mantra - and has no real or radical answers.

whats the actual amount that is going on PFI for the NHS?    I'd be interested to know.

octatonic

Glum-bucket.
LOL.

Jalapeno

thomasw88 said:

Jalapeno said:

Fretwired said:

The Tory manifesto is lightweight; the NHS is in crisis, .....

I agree.  But the NHS as currently organised will *always* be in crisis - they're saddled with all that off-sheet PFI debt from way back (I won't blame Gordon Brown for all of it) - that's where all the bloody money goes, servicing that debt.  Whoever is in power will have to keep pouring record levels of funding into the NHS just to stand still. Labour just spouts the Magic Money Unicorn mantra - and has no real or radical answers.

whats the actual amount that is going on PFI for the NHS?    I'd be interested to know.

Nobody (ie. us) really knows as they're off the balance sheet .... didn't think this was disputed a serious issue by anyone.

I'd be interested too .. it feels like it's under-reported, but that might just be my paranoia

Fretwired

thomasw88 said:

whats the actual amount that is going on PFI for the NHS?    I'd be interested to know.

The NHS is riddled with extortionate debt from decades of misguided PFI deals. NHS hospitals owe £80bn in PFI loan unitary charges – the ongoing costs of maintaining PFI hospitals and paying back the loans cost the NHS £2bn in repayments every year.

The biggest problem in the NHS is a lack of planning. Many doctors and GPs are retiring, yet government caps the number of doctors that can be trained to 5,000 a year. This means the NHS has to use expensive agency staff or pay recruitment fees to get staff from abroad who may not meet UK standards. This also means there are fewer GPs and with demand for services rising many cannot get a doctor's appointment so go to A&E.

The NHS hasn't kept pace with population growth so there is pressure in key services, such as maternity, and in the ageing population who, due to healthcare, are living longer. Simply put there are not enough hospitals, GP's surgeries, doctors or nurses.

The NHS needs reforming. My area is piloting mobile doctors in cars with blue lights and the full yellow and green NHS livery. They turn up dressed in NHS uniforms and their aim is to keep people out of hospital and treat them at home. My parents have benefited from this service - it works well.

I'd scrap the GP's practices as we know them - inefficient. I'd create health centres staffed by GP's and NHS staff, such as nurses. These would be concentrated with say 25 GPs and 20 odd nurses and open from 8:00 am to 8:00 pm. In cities these could include basic A&E facilities for minor injuries. This is done in Denmark and Germany and works well. You can just walk in and see a doctor.

The NHS can be fixed - it will need cash and time. And it needs Joe Public to stop wasting people's time and get their health in order - stop smoking, take exercise and watch their weight.

And sadly the Tories can't be trusted with the NHS.

Myranda

I might not be Corbyn's biggest fan... but a Woman's Hour interview causing him to struggle on childcare costs ... I'm sure that's a good sign that he'll be a strong and inspirational leader...

May seems to think Europe will bend to her every whim without a clue that maybe 500ish million people with more than 20 economies might have their own agenda, for which they might be more steadfast than some sort of hynotised-sheep-lemmings ... and Corbyn gets flustered over not knowing the cost of one manifesto pledge out of dozens - would have been easy to say that he's not the shadow chancellor, and so he can't recall every financial figure, but let himself get flustered... 

I really hope that whoever does win pays for a professional negotiator of some sort rather than does it themselves...

Otherwise we'll somehow wind up paying £500 billion for the privilege of becoming a penal colony for Europe or something equally crappy

Jalapeno

Fretwired said:

thomasw88 said:

whats the actual amount that is going on PFI for the NHS?    I'd be interested to know.

The NHS is riddled with extortionate debt from decades of misguided PFI deals. NHS hospitals owe £80bn in PFI loan unitary charges – the ongoing costs of maintaining PFI hospitals and paying back the loans cost the NHS £2bn in repayments every year.

The biggest problem in the NHS is a lack of planning. Many doctors and GPs are retiring, yet government caps the number of doctors that can be trained to 5,000 a year. This means the NHS has to use expensive agency staff or pay recruitment fees to get staff from abroad who may not meet UK standards. This also means there are fewer GPs and with demand for services rising many cannot get a doctors appointment so go to A&E.

The NHS hasn't kept pace with population growth so there is pressure in key services, such as maternity, and in the ageing population who, due to healthcare, are living longer. Simply put there are not enough hospitals, GP's surgeries, doctors or nurses.

The NHS needs reforming. My area is piloting mobile doctors in cars with blue lights and the full yellow and green NHS livery. They turn up dressed in NHS uniforms and their aim is to keep people out of hospital and treat them at home. My parents have benefited from this service - it works well.

I'd scrap the GP's practices as we know them - inefficient. I'd create health centres staffed by GP's and NHS staff, such as nurses. These would be concentrated with say 25 GPs and 20 odd nurses and open from 8:00 am to 8:00 pm. In cities these could include basic A&E facilities for minor injuries. This is done in Denmark and Germany and works well. You can just walk in and see a doctor.

The NHS can be fixed - it will need cash and time. And it needs Joe Public to stop wasting people's time and get their health in order - stop smoking, take exercise and watch their weight.

And sadly the Tories can't be trusted with the NHS.

Bit of a leap, but who can - none of them have anything to say other than "more money" & "record levels of funding"  ?

I like the idea of health centres (in lieu of GPs) or cottage hospitals as they used to be called before all the bigger is better dogma closed them all (that's an NHS mindset criticism, not a party politcal one)

FX_Munkee

Myranda said:

I might not be Corbyn's biggest fan... but a Woman's Hour interview causing him to struggle on childcare costs ... I'm sure that's a good sign that he'll be a strong and inspirational leader...

May seems to think Europe will bend to her every whim without a clue that maybe 500ish million people with more than 20 economies might have their own agenda, for which they might be more steadfast than some sort of hynotised-sheep-lemmings ... and Corbyn gets flustered over not knowing the cost of one manifesto pledge out of dozens - would have been easy to say that he's not the shadow chancellor, and so he can't recall every financial figure, but let himself get flustered... 

I really hope that whoever does win pays for a professional negotiator of some sort rather than does it themselves...

Otherwise we'll somehow wind up paying £500 billion for the privilege of becoming a penal colony for Europe or something equally crappy

Would Kier Starmer do?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Starmer

mellowsun

Fretwired said:

I'd create health centres staffed by GP's and NHS staff, such as nurses. These would be concentrated with say 25 GPs and 20 odd nurses and open from 8:00 am to 8:00 pm. In cities these could include basic A&E facilities for minor injuries. This is done in Denmark and Germany and works well. You can just walk in and see a doctor.

Funnily enough a few of these walk-in centres were opened under Labour, but shut down by the Tories when these centres became too popular. My parents-in-law had one near them just outside Norwich. Gone now, so back to waiting 2 weeks to see a GP.

Fretwired

Jalapeno said:

I like the idea of health centres (in lieu of GPs) or cottage hospitals as they used to be called before all the bigger is better dogma closed them all (that's an NHS mindset criticism, not a party politcal one)

There was one in Luton in the early 80s when I lived there - about 20 GPs and it was open until 8:30pm four nights a week. You could phone for an appointment to see a specific doctor or just tune up and get pot luck. There were nurses who handled minor injuries or check-ups (blood tests, blood pressure etc)- I was stitched up there after a rugby match in '82 and it had a pharmacy.

thomasw88

Fretwired said:

thomasw88 said:

whats the actual amount that is going on PFI for the NHS?    I'd be interested to know.

The NHS is riddled with extortionate debt from decades of misguided PFI deals. NHS hospitals owe £80bn in PFI loan unitary charges – the ongoing costs of maintaining PFI hospitals and paying back the loans cost the NHS £2bn in repayments every year.

The biggest problem in the NHS is a lack of planning. Many doctors and GPs are retiring, yet government caps the number of doctors that can be trained to 5,000 a year. This means the NHS has to use expensive agency staff or pay recruitment fees to get staff from abroad who may not meet UK standards. This also means there are fewer GPs and with demand for services rising many cannot get a doctors appointment so go to A&E.

The NHS hasn't kept pace with population growth so there is pressure in key services, such as maternity, and in the ageing population who, due to healthcare, are living longer. Simply put there are not enough hospitals, GP's surgeries, doctors or nurses.

The NHS needs reforming. My area is piloting mobile doctors in cars with blue lights and the full yellow and green NHS livery. They turn up dressed in NHS uniforms and their aim is to keep people out of hospital and treat them at home. My parents have benefited from this service - it works well.

I'd scrap the GP's practices as we know them - inefficient. I'd create health centres staffed by GP's and NHS staff, such as nurses. These would be concentrated with say 25 GPs and 20 odd nurses and open from 8:00 am to 8:00 pm. In cities these could include basic A&E facilities for minor injuries. This is done in Denmark and Germany and works well. You can just walk in and see a doctor.

The NHS can be fixed - it will need cash and time. And it needs Joe Public to stop wasting people's time and get their health in order - stop smoking, take exercise and watch their weight.

And sadly the Tories can't be trusted with the NHS.

Not disputing your figures , as I have no idea how to check that.- but  assuming it is 2 billion a year, thats around less than 2% of the budget.  Whilst not insignificant, it somewhat isn't  as bad as  Jalapeno said:

Fretwired said:

The Tory manifesto is lightweight; the NHS is in crisis, .....

I agree.  But the NHS as currently organised will *always* be in crisis - they're saddled with all that off-sheet PFI debt from way back (I won't blame Gordon Brown for all of it) - that's where all the bloody money goes, servicing that debt.  Whoever is in power will have to keep pouring record levels of funding into the NHS just to stand still. Labour just spouts the Magic Money Unicorn mantra - and has no real or radical answers.

TheBigDipper

Myranda said:

I might not be Corbyn's biggest fan... but a Woman's Hour interview causing him to struggle on childcare costs ... I'm sure that's a good sign that he'll be a strong and inspirational leader...

May seems to think Europe will bend to her every whim without a clue that maybe 500ish million people with more than 20 economies might have their own agenda, for which they might be more steadfast than some sort of hynotised-sheep-lemmings ... and Corbyn gets flustered over not knowing the cost of one manifesto pledge out of dozens - would have been easy to say that he's not the shadow chancellor, and so he can't recall every financial figure, but let himself get flustered... 

I really hope that whoever does win pays for a professional negotiator of some sort rather than does it themselves...

Otherwise we'll somehow wind up paying £500 billion for the privilege of becoming a penal colony for Europe or something equally crappy

I'm not a Corbyn fan, either. I'm probably not going to vote Labour (and in Christchurch, with the odious Chris Chope, there's no chance of anyone else beating him anyway). But...  I don't mind if a politician can't remember all their figures and has to look them up. It's not a memory test, is it? I've never remembered every figure in my budget spreadsheets at work - and it's always been OK for me to go to meetings and refer to the laptop. 

As long as the Civil Service has to do the work, I think we'll manage if the PM can't remember the numbers. 

The pithy point I'd make is at least Labour has a manifesto with figures in it. Unlike some parties... 

Heartfeltdawn

TheBigDipper said:

I'm not a Corbyn fan, either. I'm probably not going to vote Labour (and in Christchurch, with the odious Chris Chope, there's no chance of anyone else beating him anyway).

My commiserations for having that arsehole as your elected representative. 

Drew_TNBD

I don't think I can vote.

None of the parties represent me, and they are all intending to do things I don't agree with.

- Conservatives are big business corporate interests.
- Labour are social justice warriors who ignore reality.
- Lib Dems are Tory-Lite.
- The Greens are anti people and anti science.

I just don't think I can do it. It's not apathy. It's profound disgust that this is our choice, and it amounts to choosing which hole to be fucked in.

Fretwired

Just watched Newsnight debate .. OMG ... it reminds me of 6th form debates at my school. Under 30s vears over 60s and not a brain cell between them. I actually felt sorry for the Tory who was trying to explain the difference between the deficit and debt and got shouted down ... God I just want this to end .....

PVO_Dave

Fretwired said:

 ... God I just want this to end .....

This, really bought out the idiots on social media too. Sorely tempted to temp delete my Facebook account until it is done. The amount of very angry and/or vocal Labour supporters (for whatever reason, be that Facebooks view on what I want to see, or shy Tory syndrome) is all I see politics wise. 

Problem is, if the Tories do win again, it won't end, as there will likely be more protests etc.. 

Bidley

PVO_Dave said:

Fretwired said:

 ... God I just want this to end .....

This, really bought out the idiots on social media too. Sorely tempted to temp delete my Facebook account until it is done. The amount of very angry and/or vocal Labour supporters (for whatever reason, be that Facebooks view on what I want to see, or shy Tory syndrome) is all I see politics wise. 

Problem is, if the Tories do win again, it won't end, as there will likely be more protests etc.. 

Same. I've avoided Facebook as much as possible since the referendum. I had a flick through yesterday, and it's as bad or worse.

dhj

Yep, couldn't agree more. Not voting labour this time purely based on the fact that I don't want to be part of an organisation that labels any corbyn questioner as 'tory cunt, Tory scum, possible paedophile, baby killer and so on ' I really do despair and am genuinely concerned about what might happen if corbyn wins. where will there bile be directed next?

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_TNBD said:

I don't think I can vote.

None of the parties represent me, and they are all intending to do things I don't agree with.

- Conservatives are big business corporate interests.
- Labour are social justice warriors who ignore reality.
- Lib Dems are Tory-Lite.
- The Greens are anti people and anti science.

I just don't think I can do it. It's not apathy. It's profound disgust that this is our choice, and it amounts to choosing which hole to be fucked in.

I think I know which way I'm going to vote. But I'm *this close* to feeling the same way as you. 

You could spoil the ballot, I suppose (for whatever that is worth). Write a note on it that none of the candidates were fit for the job. 

TheBigDipper

I'm lucky that I can identify with a choice in my constituency and vote for them even though they have no chance of winning.  If you're one of those people who really don't want to vote for any of the choices in front of you, maybe you can vote for the one most likely to beat the choice you despise the most. A vote against, if you will. 

Fretwired

Oh well .... May must be crying into her cornflakes. YouGov poll predicts Labour to gain 30 seats from the Tories who are in disarray and in meltdown. Looks like she's going to lose ..

Facebook is in overload - it must be having an affect.