The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

jellyroll

Fretwired said:

I usually vote Tory but I can't bring myself to do it this time (not that it makes much difference as my local Tory candidate usually polls over 55% of the vote). I think we have had years of cuts and stagnant wages and polices that discriminate against the under 30s. May is an utter shambles; her record as Home Secretary was poor and she's run the worst campaign ever .. and I mean ever. Michael Foot's campaign in the 1980's has been surpassed.

The better off need to wake up and smell the coffee. We need to pay more tax to help rebalance society and sustain public services. The Tories won't do it .. they couldn't even be arsed to put some costings in their manifesto. They don't deserve to win and they have no credible agenda.

How about reading today's May cock-up. She's admitted the security services and counter terrorism services are facing cuts ... after the recent attacks. That might be the last nail in her coffin.

Corbyn is in his 70s so won't be around for long and I can't see Abbott being in any cabinet. And if Corbyn wins it will wipe the smug smile of Yvette Cooper's face and consign her to the dustbin of history. She's been briefing against Corbyn all campaign. Odious woman.

Philly_Q said:

Maybe they've all been put off by the utterly inept campaign the Tories have been running the last few weeks?

I went in to this thinking I might actually vote Conservative for only (I think) the second time in my life.  Other parties' policies appeal more, but the idea of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry etc running the country and handling Brexit negotiations horrifies me and I was starting to buy into the "firm (and strengthened) leadership" argument.

What we've seen is an arrogant, "fuck you all, we know best" attitude and a campaign based entirely around Theresa May herself, which might have worked if she'd actually done anything other than avoid debate and bleat the phrase "strong and stable" a million times.  Well done Tories, it's the referendum all over again.

Both of these pretty much sum up my own views. I'm a natural Tory voter by virtue of being a high earner in a corporate job. Before the election was announced I just thought May was keeping her cards close to her chest as a Brexit tactic....but it turns out it's because she has nothing meaningful to say. Not appearing at the debates backfired big time.  Labour will probably win in my constituency so my vote isn't particularly important and I will vote Tory out of self preservation ....but I have serious doubts about their competency.  And Labour are worse. 

Snap

ICBM said:

Snap said:

Jeremy Corbyn - I struggle to understand how anyone can back him with his history with the IRA and his objection to every piece of legislation to fight terrorism.

Please check Theresa May's voting record on most of the same - Blair/Brown New Labour legislation - she voted against a lot of it too, for the same very good reasons Corbyn always has… because it infringes our civil liberties without actually providing any more protection.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

It's very easy to follow the Tory line on attacking him when you don't look too deeply into the hypocrisy of that.

As for supporting the IRA - if Ian Paisley could sit down and work with Martin McGuinness, who was actually a member of the IRA, to bring peace, then I think it's reasonable to put anything Corbyn may have done in that context in the past.

He has unequivocally condemned terrorism, by all sides.

WIth the IRA and Corbyn - what I am criticising is his judgment and timing. The speed with which he got convicted IRA terrorirists under his wing, e.g right after bombings. As soon as Gerry Mclauighlin was out of nick, he has him over to London, and apparently secured funds or a salary. His issues with anti semitism, his reticence to speak out against the IRA, his suport for Hamas, etc etc.

The thing that really stinks is how much he and his fellows were so conspicuously all over Sinn Fein and the IRA during the troubles at the most insensitive of times.

As a parallel today, how would we feel if he was seen meeting with convicted islamic terrorists, or invited some to parliament?

And then he has told blatant lies about not meeting the IRA, which he has had to back track on.

Now you can apologise or excuse his fraternisations as much as you like, but in the troubles he was renowned for being a sympathiser. The thing that stinks, and I think it is a core of his character, is the timing - he was too busy being an activist and a non conformist to think about what his actions would be interpreted as, on both sides. He is blinkered and immature in this respect, in my opinion.

ICBM

Snap said:

What would really worry me about Corbyn at the helm is the apparently undefined, free of substance communist wishlist he has for just about everything. Their taxation plans will drive businesses away and will see us all paying a lot more tax at every point possible.

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

jellyroll

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Fretwired

RandallFlagg said:

Convince me that the £28K I paid in tax last year is not being wasted and is being used efficiently and I will consider paying more.

Collecting even more money in taxes just to spend as inefficiently is not an answer.

I can't - but I paid more tax than you .... ;-)

No government will spend money wisely ...

Fretwired

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

joneve

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

aka, the ones with, in theory, more disposable income (blanket statement alert). 

jellyroll

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

Yes. I have a problem 
with promoting the idea that we are all paying more tax when we are not all paying more tax. 

blobb

How is the IRA connection a disadvantage if we are seeking a leader with credentials to fight terrorists?

[cat/pigeons] 

ICBM

jellyroll said:

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

In order to really fix the problem of the debt, it's all of us - other than the truly poor. Labour at least want to make a start by increasing tax on the better off, but in the long run it will have to go up slightly overall.

The problem with the Tories is that they think they can do it by cuts in spending at the same time as lowering taxes. The evidence is absolutely consistent that this does not work.

Fretwired

jellyroll said:

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

Yes. I have a problem 
with promoting the idea that we are all paying more tax when we are not all paying more tax. 

So you're saying you don't want to help people less well off than yourself? Do you think it fair that graduates are saddled with £30K worth of debt before they start work? It's ludicrous - we need skilled graduates. Higher education should be free.

jellyroll

Fretwired said:

RandallFlagg said:

Convince me that the £28K I paid in tax last year is not being wasted and is being used efficiently and I will consider paying more.

Collecting even more money in taxes just to spend as inefficiently is not an answer.

I can't - but I paid more tax than you .... ;-)

No government will spend money wisely ...

This goes to the heart of my objection to additional taxes too. I know from my own interaction with certain government agencies over many years what a complete shambles they are. It scares me to extrapolate my own experiences back across the whole public sector. 

jellyroll

ICBM said:

jellyroll said:

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

In order to really fix the problem of the debt, it's all of us - other than the truly poor. Labour at least want to make a start by increasing tax on the better off, but in the long run it will have to go up slightly overall.

The problem with the Tories is that they think they can do it by cuts in spending at the same time as lowering taxes. The evidence is absolutely consistent that this does not work.

I agree. This is the time to invest, especially in education, infrastructure, training, R&D, etc. I read an interest article recently which talked about the myth that not borrowing is key to a successful economy.

Sporky

Fretwired said:

Higher education should be free.

And (again) if the government stopped pissing the money away it could be.

But there's no will in government - or, it seems, here - to stop wasting taxes. Nah - just squeeze a bit harder and carry on flushing lots of it down the pan.

jellyroll

Here's the article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/01/myths-money-british-voters-economy-britain-welfare

jellyroll

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

Yes. I have a problem 
with promoting the idea that we are all paying more tax when we are not all paying more tax. 

So you're saying you don't want to help people less well off than yourself? Do you think it fair that graduates are saddled with £30K worth of debt before they start work? It's ludicrous - we need skilled graduates. Higher education should be free.

No, I'm saying that the suggestion that "we are all to pay more tax" is incorrect when the actual proposals are that only some people will pay more tax.

Snap

Interestingly, even the Guardian has published a final poll with the Tories at a 7 point lead, pointing to a majority of 48

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/06/general-election-2017-security-farron-knee-jerk-response-politics-live

Snap

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

Very much so, the wealthy always pay more tax. It's the rate that should be the same. Always believed that you should not punish someone for earning more, by increasing their rate of income tax. Leave it level. That is fair. IMO hard to argue otherwise.

The better off also tend to take less from the state in terms of health and public services.

So, the richer pay more in, and take less out, sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Snap

This is the sort of naivete, however well intended that makes me worry about Jeremy Corbyns' negotiating skill

“We will immediately guarantee rights of EU nationals living in Britain unilaterally,” Corbyn said. Of Merkel, he said: “I would hope she would make sure the same would be done for British nationals in her country and Europe but this is not a negotiation; we would do it anyway.”

Mate, FFS, go on a course and learn how to negotiate, and don't assume everyone is as magnanimous as you.

He'd be better off saying he would offer guaranteed rights with assurance of reciprocity.

You do not show your hand without having something back first. Schoolboy error. Don't pull your pants down before everyone else, they will all sit there laughing.

Budgie

Very well done -