The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

Fretwired said:

jellyroll said:

ICBM said:

We *have* to pay more tax - that's the whole reason the Tories have historically borrowed more than Labour and failed to pay it back as quickly - which is a fact. Labour is actually the more fiscally responsible party. Why the myth of the opposite persists is beyond me - it seems to be possible to present the true figures as often as you want and still people will not believe them.

But it's not "we" is it? It's just some of us. 

Just the wealthier ones .. have a problem with that?

Yes. I have a problem 
with promoting the idea that we are all paying more tax when we are not all paying more tax. 

So you're saying you don't want to help people less well off than yourself? Do you think it fair that graduates are saddled with £30K worth of debt before they start work? It's ludicrous - we need skilled graduates. Higher education should be free.

I agree, with the bit in bold. The thing is...we don't need as many graduates as we get on an annual basis. I'd go even further, in fact: we need fewer graduates. If we had fewer graduates, degrees would actually mean something (rather than being the default requirement for pretty much any job regardless of how it relates to your degree) and we could go back to higher education being free again.

As it is, there's no way the education budget could possibly support as many university students as we currently have - 1.75m undergrads with average fees of £8,354 - that's over £14bn.

jellyroll

Snap said:

Very much so, the wealthy always pay more tax. It's the rate that should be the same. Always believed that you should not punish someone for earning more, by increasing their rate of income tax. Leave it level. That is fair. IMO hard to argue otherwise.

Overlooking the fact that higher earners pay more tax even without any rate differential is part of the national psyche. 

ToneControl

octatonic said:

Anyone else think this 'it is a close race' stuff in the right wing media is actually a ploy to get Tory voters out to vote?

yes

ToneControl

Snap said:

Interestingly, even the Guardian has published a final poll with the Tories at a 7 point lead, pointing to a majority of 48

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/06/general-election-2017-security-farron-knee-jerk-response-politics-live

matches my gut feel

Snap

The whole election so far just makes me feel queasy really. I make no excuse or denial of not liking Corbyn & Co's ideologies, the Tories are not far off blowing it through their own arrogance and pigheadedness, and The LibDems have really struggled to find a voice.

The biggest surprise through it all was Paul Nuttall being interviewed by Andrew Neill - I thought he actually came across quite well, despite a few Neil low blows. Not saying for a moment that I would vote UKIP btw.

I think it has made clear to us that our political parties are crap, one and all. Perhaps once the dust has settled, and assuming that the Tories win, the Labour party may split and a new centre left party could emerge. That might be the shot across the bows British politics needs. We certainly don't want our politics veering further to the right, IMO. I'd be veyr interested to see what the more lucid and logical Labour MPs could come up with.

Jalapeno

Snap said:

Interestingly, even the Guardian has published a final poll with the Tories at a 7 point lead, pointing to a majority of 48

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/06/general-election-2017-security-farron-knee-jerk-response-politics-live

They don't f*cking deserve it at all. They have run an appalling campaign.  The whole election has been shoddy IMHO,  all sloganeering, shouty, meme/attack video driven, genuinely depressed by it all. (Plus I feel sorry for Diane Abbott (that's really how bad it's got !!!!) - I think she's unwell and  shouldn't be in the media, yet clearly wants to be in the thick of things).

PVO_Dave

Bit of a brain dump from me, I don't claim the below is correct, just my thoughts at the moment, happy to be corrected or have any of the below explained that I've bumbled over.

I've always previously voted conservative, but right now I'm going to struggle to put a mark in a box that helps out May;
Her 'campaign' is the least inspired of any I remember, no real manifesto (Brexit, Strong and Stable), u-turns, refusing the debate (fire the adviser!)
Completely out of touch with what the common person wants (fox hunting, ivory trade etc..)
Refusing to publicly say anything about some of Trump's London Mayor outbursts  (OK, not that important, but still odd).
I'm really struggling with idea of the disability cuts, we shouldn't be punishing our most vulnerable, the "workshy" then sure, but if you genuinely need help, that's what we pay in for right? If life is already tough enough, you shouldn't be made to jump through hoops - although I appreciate that it's not easy to police it, it still doesn't sit well with me.
God botherer - I know this will upset the religious, but I don't like the idea of the person in power consulting on serious matters with their imaginary friend - For example, Tony Blair has said (paraphrasing) that he consulted with God before Iraq... hmmm
Police / Security services cuts - Feels like completely the wrong time to consider this.

Corbyn has performed much better, to the point where I've been considering my first ever labour vote, but I still struggle with him and Labour for many reasons, a couple below;
IRA - Yes it's in the past, but his excuses just don't really line up with what he was seen to have done.
Trident - No sane person would actually want him to 'push the big red button' (I certainly hope I never see the need in my lifetime), but sending out a message that basically says he wouldn't, renders the thing completely pointless? Maybe this is more of an issue with the press/public forcing him into a corner?
The obsession with taxing the 'rich' / wealthiest - I think this will end up creating more tax avoidance personally - again helps to create a further divide of resentment - I'm sure studies have already been linked here to show that in reducing the amount taxed it actually bought more tax in? 
Diane Abbott - Yes, I know Boris Johnson etc.. etc.. , but she really takes the cake.

I think a reality check is needed for what is defined as wealthy / better off. If you are earning a certain amount you lose all benefits (mainly around children). Nursery / childcare costs an absolute fortune so you or your other half returns to part time work or becomes a stay at home parent, leaving the other to pick up the shortfall, meaning you no better off than a family on a middle income getting benefit, but paying full whack for everything. I agree with some of the other posters, that if tax rises are needed, 1% on all would be much fairer than constantly adding the cost to the 'rich'. Why should anyone give up half of what they've earned? 

Another big put off for a Labour vote for me, is ending up a Labour voter! The Conservatives might be known as the 'nasty party' but the hardcore Labour supporters certainly take that title from the crap I see shared on social media, the fallout when the Conservatives won the last election etc.. I've mentioned it previously, in theory Facebook etc.. should be trying to keep me in my little bubble of like minded people, showing me the content it thinks I agree with, so not sure what's going on there. (just to mention at the same time, I wouldn't want to see the likes of Capo4th (sorry!) style posts in my timeline either, I'd rather it was all a bit friendlier).

I think at the moment, I'm at the point of just not voting, which feels wrong. 

octatonic

This is pretty excellent.

capo4th

Budgie said:

I'll see your Diane Abbot and raise you a Boris Johnson. Both utter liabilities.

Johnson is an intelligent man he just plays the class clown very well which is part of his appeal

capo4th

Snap said:

ICBM said:

Snap said:

Jeremy Corbyn - I struggle to understand how anyone can back him with his history with the IRA and his objection to every piece of legislation to fight terrorism.

Please check Theresa May's voting record on most of the same - Blair/Brown New Labour legislation - she voted against a lot of it too, for the same very good reasons Corbyn always has… because it infringes our civil liberties without actually providing any more protection.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

It's very easy to follow the Tory line on attacking him when you don't look too deeply into the hypocrisy of that.

As for supporting the IRA - if Ian Paisley could sit down and work with Martin McGuinness, who was actually a member of the IRA, to bring peace, then I think it's reasonable to put anything Corbyn may have done in that context in the past.

He has unequivocally condemned terrorism, by all sides.

WIth the IRA and Corbyn - what I am criticising is his judgment and timing. The speed with which he got convicted IRA terrorirists under his wing, e.g right after bombings. As soon as Gerry Mclauighlin was out of nick, he has him over to London, and apparently secured funds or a salary. His issues with anti semitism, his reticence to speak out against the IRA, his suport for Hamas, etc etc.

The thing that really stinks is how much he and his fellows were so conspicuously all over Sinn Fein and the IRA during the troubles at the most insensitive of times.

As a parallel today, how would we feel if he was seen meeting with convicted islamic terrorists, or invited some to parliament?

And then he has told blatant lies about not meeting the IRA, which he has had to back track on.

Now you can apologise or excuse his fraternisations as much as you like, but in the troubles he was renowned for being a sympathiser. The thing that stinks, and I think it is a core of his character, is the timing - he was too busy being an activist and a non conformist to think about what his actions would be interpreted as, on both sides. He is blinkered and immature in this respect, in my opinion.

Fact - Jeremy Corbyn leader of the Labour Party and potential PM is a terrorist apologist and terrorist sympathiser. 

Why would we we want him in charge of anything? 

octatonic

capo4th said:

Fact - Jeremy Corbyn leader of the Labour Party and potential PM is a terrorist apologist and terrorist sympathiser. 

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are a silly man.

capo4th

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Fact - Jeremy Corbyn leader of the Labour Party and potential PM is a terrorist apologist and terrorist sympathiser. 

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are a silly man.

Prove me wrong wise man 

Jalapeno

Axe_meister said:

Scrap HS2 ...

You had me right there brother !

digitalscream

I'm mostly in the same boat as @PVO_Dave - I've always voted Conservative, but I can't in all honesty endorse the sham that they are now. Was talking it over with my boss earlier, and he summed it up - Theresa May just seems a bit dim, from everything she's said. She speaks either in meaningless slogans, or long rambling speeches which actually say nothing at all useful. Then there's her frankly terrifying disregard for privacy and human rights as applied to the population, and utter lack of understanding of the digital world. I've never seen a candidate less-suited for the job they're going for (except maybe Diane Abbott).

I don't particularly want to endorse the Labour Party as it is either, but frankly...I think there's a damn good chance that whoever wins this election will lose the next one because of Brexit. I couldn't give a toss about his record on security and the like or whether he's been photographed talking to ex-terrorists - the nuts and bolts of what the security services do are pretty much independent of the government - and if Trident ever becomes necessary as more than a contribution to MAD then we're all fucked anyway. His tax plans are unlikely to make a significant difference to the coffers (although the accountants and lawyers are probably rubbing their hands together right now), but if he has to borrow more to ease the load...well, I'm willing to give that a go on the basis that continuing as we are doesn't appear to be helping trying something new may actually be positive.

On that basis, I'm voting Labour since a single term isn't enough time to fuck things up with some of his more loony ideas, thus limiting the damage.

capo4th

Snap said:

Interestingly, even the Guardian has published a final poll with the Tories at a 7 point lead, pointing to a majority of 48

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/06/general-election-2017-security-farron-knee-jerk-response-politics-live

That'll do for me I pay loads of tax take very little out of the system even pay for my sons own education.

I have private healthcare.

Where is my tax credit? 

No no sorry Sir we would like more money from you to piss down the Labour drain ! 

Thank you! 

Fretwired

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

Higher education should be free.

And (again) if the government stopped pissing the money away it could be.

But there's no will in government - or, it seems, here - to stop wasting taxes. Nah - just squeeze a bit harder and carry on flushing lots of it down the pan.

I can't argue with you there Mr Sporky ...

Fretwired

PVO_Dave said:

Bit of a brain dump from me, I don't claim the below is correct, just my thoughts at the moment, happy to be corrected or have any of the below explained that I've bumbled over.

I've always previously voted conservative, but right now I'm going to struggle to put a mark in a box that helps out May;
Her 'campaign' is the least inspired of any I remember, no real manifesto (Brexit, Strong and Stable), u-turns, refusing the debate (fire the adviser!)
Completely out of touch with what the common person wants (fox hunting, ivory trade etc..)
Refusing to publicly say anything about some of Trump's London Mayor outbursts  (OK, not that important, but still odd).
I'm really struggling with idea of the disability cuts, we shouldn't be punishing our most vulnerable, the "workshy" then sure, but if you genuinely need help, that's what we pay in for right? If life is already tough enough, you shouldn't be made to jump through hoops - although I appreciate that it's not easy to police it, it still doesn't sit well with me.
God botherer - I know this will upset the religious, but I don't like the idea of the person in power consulting on serious matters with their imaginary friend - For example, Tony Blair has said (paraphrasing) that he consulted with God before Iraq... hmmm
Police / Security services cuts - Feels like completely the wrong time to consider this.

Corbyn has performed much better, to the point where I've been considering my first ever labour vote, but I still struggle with him and Labour for many reasons, a couple below;
IRA - Yes it's in the past, but his excuses just don't really line up with what he was seen to have done.
Trident - No sane person would actually want him to 'push the big red button' (I certainly hope I never see the need in my lifetime), but sending out a message that basically says he wouldn't, renders the thing completely pointless? Maybe this is more of an issue with the press/public forcing him into a corner?
The obsession with taxing the 'rich' / wealthiest - I think this will end up creating more tax avoidance personally - again helps to create a further divide of resentment - I'm sure studies have already been linked here to show that in reducing the amount taxed it actually bought more tax in? 
Diane Abbott - Yes, I know Boris Johnson etc.. etc.. , but she really takes the cake.

I think a reality check is needed for what is defined as wealthy / better off. If you are earning a certain amount you lose all benefits (mainly around children). Nursery / childcare costs an absolute fortune so you or your other half returns to part time work or becomes a stay at home parent, leaving the other to pick up the shortfall, meaning you no better off than a family on a middle income getting benefit, but paying full whack for everything. I agree with some of the other posters, that if tax rises are needed, 1% on all would be much fairer than constantly adding the cost to the 'rich'. Why should anyone give up half of what they've earned? 

Another big put off for a Labour vote for me, is ending up a Labour voter! The Conservatives might be known as the 'nasty party' but the hardcore Labour supporters certainly take that title from the crap I see shared on social media, the fallout when the Conservatives won the last election etc.. I've mentioned it previously, in theory Facebook etc.. should be trying to keep me in my little bubble of like minded people, showing me the content it thinks I agree with, so not sure what's going on there. (just to mention at the same time, I wouldn't want to see the likes of Capo4th (sorry!) style posts in my timeline either, I'd rather it was all a bit friendlier).

I think at the moment, I'm at the point of just not voting, which feels wrong. 

Good post.

I think May is finished whether she wins or loses. If you are a Tory voter who can't vote Labour then vote Tory. I think she'll do a Cameron and quit as leader and PM. She's too damaged. I think David Davis could take over. He's popular as a working class bloke from a council estate who speaks clearly - had he been in charge I'm pretty sure there would have been a landslide.

octatonic

capo4th said:

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Fact - Jeremy Corbyn leader of the Labour Party and potential PM is a terrorist apologist and terrorist sympathiser. 

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
You are a silly man.

Prove me wrong wise man 

You've spent almost all your time here with knee-jerk refutations of other people's perspectives.
Nothing you've said in this thread gives me the idea that you are open minded about this issue.
You've made your mind up, picked your side and that is the end of it, right?
Why would I waste my time?

I'll happily take the piss out of you though.

cruxiform

A big vote for Labour for me on Thursday.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

I think May is finished whether she wins or loses. If you are a Tory voter who can't vote Labour then vote Tory. I think she'll do a Cameron and quit as leader and PM. She's too damaged.

I hope so since I think she is unfit for the job, but the problem is that if the Tories win and she then resigns we will then have another "unelected" PM - even though that's never really true under our system, despite her best efforts to portray it as a presidential-style election. So no matter how damaged she is, she will probably have to stay.

Better just to vote Labour and be done with it .

(Unless you live somewhere where it's a Tory/Lib Dem fight, in which case vote Lib Dem.)