Fender and their strange void in their product

RaymondLin

Reading the AVRI thread got me thinking, what is Fender playing at.

They have several levels of their product.

Custom Shop

USA

Mexico

Squire

Even Fender say it, Custom Shop is a CUSTOM shop, they make what people order, what dealer orders, so if it’s a bunch of 9.5” boards order, then it’s a bunch of 9.5” guitars made. So leave it to the other lines.

Take the neck, 7.25 and 9.5” radius, it’s a bolt on neck, why not make 2 versions of the same guitar, one of each? If they know the sales is 80/20 skewed towards 9.5” then make the stock that way. Then you get more sales.

The strange thing is that they have done it in the past it seems, but it’s never constant. They made a vintage correct Road Worn for like 10 years before it was discontinued, surely if that was selling badly then it would be scrapped sooner? Or was it too good? But I didn’t hear too much about them when they were in production. Custom Shop would do limited run of Time Machine with all the vintage correct spec but why they can’t do that on the USA line? It’s a bolt on guitar, they have the tools to make all the parts, I mean they have all the parts…is it so hard to take one part from one parts bin to put it with another part from another parts bin?

Currently it seems the most vintage correct is the Vintera but but but….no Nitro finish!

I know the people on this forum is a niche, the people who want vintage era correct spec is probably the 20% but 20% of the market is still quite a lot and dare I say it, this 20% of the market spends more money per customer than then average 80% of the market.

Are all the little missing parts in each level a way to up sell because they know this?

Whitecat

RaymondLin said:

Are all the little missing parts in each level a way to up sell because they know this?

That's generally their thinking, yes.

SRD81

Yep, agree. Just a way of pushing us towards the custom shop.

Gibson do exactly the same with the Les Paul. That’s why the headstock shape, decal position and truss rod cover are all ‘incorrect’ vs the 50’s originals on their USA guitars (I’m sure there are loads of other differences too!).

Got to assume it would be super easy to get these right, but Gibson know that some of us want vintage correct features and will pay for them via the custom shop.

oh_pollo

Even the Fender US Mod Shop where you can spec your own guitar doesn't appear to offer 7.25" as an option: https://shop.fender.com/en-GB/mod-shop/?rl=en_US

stickyfiddle

Perhaps they're selling shitloads more 9.5" guitars than they ever did 7.25" so can't be bothered. This shift has been around for a good few years so I would imagine they'd have changed tack by now if it wasn't working for them. 

birtner

If they just made the am pro nitro and brought back the avri in smaller numbers I would never consider another Gibson ever again (until a retailer sees sense and commissions a yellow SG with a 50s profile neck. Slim taper can fuck right off)

RaymondLin

stickyfiddle said:

Perhaps they're selling shitloads more 9.5" guitars than they ever did 7.25" so can't be bothered. This shift has been around for a good few years so I would imagine they'd have changed tack by now if it wasn't working for them. 

Oh I am sure they are, but they also sell enough to warrant making 7.25” radius in the Vintera range. So why not the same in the USA line? Why the gap?

crunchman

RaymondLin said:

stickyfiddle said:

Perhaps they're selling shitloads more 9.5" guitars than they ever did 7.25" so can't be bothered. This shift has been around for a good few years so I would imagine they'd have changed tack by now if it wasn't working for them. 

Oh I am sure they are, but they also sell enough to warrant making 7.25” radius in the Vintera range. So why not the same in the USA line? Why the gap?

Because they want to force you to go Custom Shop where their margins are bigger.

The limited colour options are probably a deliberate ploy as well.  If you want a 50's style Tele with a nitro finish in anything other than butterscotch, you have to go Custom Shop.

Whether the success of the PRS Silver Sky will cause a rethink by Fender regarding radius I don't know.

Lewy

This resurgent demand for 7.25" seems relatively recent... perhaps reinvigorated by the Silver Sky. My perception is that for every thread where someone is complaining about it's absence there used to be many more essentially saying "yeah I like the vintage approach but the 7.25" radius puts me off". Maybe rather than an upselling strategy Fender just didn't see this pivoting of web-think coming?

RaymondLin

crunchman said:

RaymondLin said:

stickyfiddle said:

Perhaps they're selling shitloads more 9.5" guitars than they ever did 7.25" so can't be bothered. This shift has been around for a good few years so I would imagine they'd have changed tack by now if it wasn't working for them. 

Oh I am sure they are, but they also sell enough to warrant making 7.25” radius in the Vintera range. So why not the same in the USA line? Why the gap?

Because they want to force you to go Custom Shop where their margins are bigger.

The limited colour options are probably a deliberate ploy as well.  If you want a 50's style Tele with a nitro finish in anything other than butterscotch, you have to go Custom Shop.

Whether the success of the PRS Silver Sky will cause a rethink by Fender regarding radius I don't know.

Yes, I realise that when I was writing the OP. if they didn’t sell, they won’t make it. But since they do make it, it must sell.

It’s strange they don’t even do a 1 off limited run now and again. They do the Offset MIJ Telecaster in Korina, surely making a USA vintage spec limited run would just as easy. Grab the parts from around the factory and instead of putting 9.5 for these 300 guitars, do it for 7.25.

guitars4you

RaymondLin said:

 Grab the parts from around the factory and instead of putting 9.5 for these 300 guitars, do it for 7.25.

I'm not an engineer, in charge of a production line and/or guitar builder - But the fingerboard radius will be cut by the CNC machine, so the additional cost of this work is effectively zero - The factory cost will be more about time to change the machine from 7.25 to 9.5 - If this is time based, then a machine not working, is loss revenue/profit hence additional charges  - Somehow I suspect it will be already within the CNC program, so effectively 2 seconds to change a setting - A company like Fender will have more than one CNC on the go, but not sure how many they do have

So I suspect more to do with time, marketing, demand, production schedules and other factors

guitars4you

Just a thought and/or a different way of looking at it - Is it really about 'up selling' ????

In 1962 a Strat was around £150 - That equates to £2700 today - This was the only Strat available, so very much the definitive model - A Custom Shop Strat is about as equivalent to that original 62 model as possible - Recent price increases + a very poor £ v $ rate have pushed new CS prices above the inflation calculator for the first time - But is this not the real price for a real Strat and then everything else 'down graded' accordingly to supply an appropriate market ??

More of a devils advocate question rather than a definitive fact, as I fully accept and respect that the whole 'mid/low end mass production' models are better now than ever before and certainly more consistently good 

Whitecat

guitars4you said:

Just a thought and/or a different way of looking at it - Is it really about 'up selling' ????

In 1962 a Strat was around £150 - That equates to £2700 today - This was the only Strat available, so very much the definitive model - A Custom Shop Strat is about as equivalent to that original 62 model as possible - Recent price increases + a very poor £ v $ rate have pushed new CS prices above the inflation calculator for the first time - But is this not the real price for a real Strat and then everything else 'down graded' accordingly to supply an appropriate market ??

More of a devils advocate question rather than a definitive fact, as I fully accept and respect that the whole 'mid/low end mass production' models are better now than ever before and certainly more consistently good 

The difference now is that the practice of 'line filling' has taken over the entire marketing strategy. They want to have something at literally every possible price point from £99 to £7999 (and even higher for the halo effect). So which one is the 'real Strat' and the 'real price' in that enormous catalogue?

RaymondLin

Even on the Vintera line they do both 7.25 and 9.5” on the same guitar, they put the 9.5” one under the modified label. So this is a practice they have adopted for the Mexican line, wish they could do the same on the USA line too.

HandwrittenHero

crunchman said:

RaymondLin said:

stickyfiddle said:

Perhaps they're selling shitloads more 9.5" guitars than they ever did 7.25" so can't be bothered. This shift has been around for a good few years so I would imagine they'd have changed tack by now if it wasn't working for them. 

Oh I am sure they are, but they also sell enough to warrant making 7.25” radius in the Vintera range. So why not the same in the USA line? Why the gap?

Because they want to force you to go Custom Shop where their margins are bigger.

The limited colour options are probably a deliberate ploy as well.  If you want a 50's style Tele with a nitro finish in anything other than butterscotch, you have to go Custom Shop.

Whether the success of the PRS Silver Sky will cause a rethink by Fender regarding radius I don't know.

The Silver Sky sits at a higher price point than the American Professional or American Original line...Fender do seem willing to drop a product into that price segment with a 7.25 radius etc if it’s a limited model eg Broadcaster this year only.

I do just think it’s a differentiation of products vs market pressure. It feels like there’s a pressure to have products under £2k that are seen as premium enough that they feel like a step up whilst also leaving reasons for people to find to spend more.

stickyfiddle

I don't believe people are flocking to the Silver Sky because of a 7.25" radius, they're buying it because 1) John Mayer and 2) PRS fanboys and 3) by all accounts it's just a damn good guitar.

Most early reports I read suggested people bought one despite the radius as they normally preferred flatter.

Whitecat

stickyfiddle said:

I don't believe people are flocking to the Silver Sky because of a 7.25" radius, they're buying it because 1) John Mayer and 2) PRS fanboys and 3) by all accounts it's just a damn good guitar.

Most early reports I read suggested people bought one despite the radius as they normally preferred flatter.

Indeed they are buying because there is no other choice. If you want a PRS Strat, that's the one and only. With Fender, if you have £2300 spare, the list of Strats you can buy is vast.

Edit: thinking back across what I've read on forums and social media, I think I've seen more people anecdotally say "I *won't* buy the SS" because of the radius" than say "I will buy it *despite* the radius." And I've seen not a single person say "I am buying it *because of* the radius."

guitargeek62

stickyfiddle said:

I don't believe people are flocking to the Silver Sky because of a 7.25" radius, they're buying it because 1) John Mayer and 2) PRS fanboys and 3) by all accounts it's just a damn good guitar.

Most early reports I read suggested people bought one despite the radius as they normally preferred flatter.

Agreed - there's been a lot of dismay(er) about it since release, with many people avoiding it entirely as a result. In practice, PRS have done a great job in making that 7.25" eminently playable.

What's weird though is that I don't remember many people prior to the Silver Sky saying that they had a preference for a vintage radius. I'm sure they were out there, but they do seem to be a growing minority now.

crunchman

Whitecat said:

stickyfiddle said:

I don't believe people are flocking to the Silver Sky because of a 7.25" radius, they're buying it because 1) John Mayer and 2) PRS fanboys and 3) by all accounts it's just a damn good guitar.

Most early reports I read suggested people bought one despite the radius as they normally preferred flatter.

Indeed they are buying because there is no other choice. If you want a PRS Strat, that's the one and only. With Fender, if you have £2300 spare, the list of Strats you can buy is vast.

It might be vast, but there still isn't an American made one with a 7.25" radius in the current range.

guitars4you

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Just a thought and/or a different way of looking at it - Is it really about 'up selling' ????

In 1962 a Strat was around £150 - That equates to £2700 today - This was the only Strat available, so very much the definitive model - A Custom Shop Strat is about as equivalent to that original 62 model as possible - Recent price increases + a very poor £ v $ rate have pushed new CS prices above the inflation calculator for the first time - But is this not the real price for a real Strat and then everything else 'down graded' accordingly to supply an appropriate market ??

More of a devils advocate question rather than a definitive fact, as I fully accept and respect that the whole 'mid/low end mass production' models are better now than ever before and certainly more consistently good 

The difference now is that the practice of 'line filling' has taken over the entire marketing strategy. They want to have something at literally every possible price point from £99 to £7999 (and even higher for the halo effect). So which one is the 'real Strat' and the 'real price' in that enormous catalogue?

Agree the line is probably to vast and wide over that enormous catalogue 

In many ways the original 'replicas' based on the 82/83 era JV models was more about taking on the likes of Tokai, who came to the market with such models, before Fender - Tokai were proactive and Fender very much reactive at this stage - Apart from in the USA, then Fender could not 'ban' them with any court case, copy right issues etc, so a case of if you can't beat them, then join them and command the market, based on why buy any old copy when you can buy a Fender copy - It then just expanded from there on-wards 

Hard to say it isn't a policy that is not working for Fender, but I do think the offering is to much, sometimes confusing, and sometimes to many changes for the sake of 'marketing'

Whitecat

crunchman said:

Whitecat said:

stickyfiddle said:

I don't believe people are flocking to the Silver Sky because of a 7.25" radius, they're buying it because 1) John Mayer and 2) PRS fanboys and 3) by all accounts it's just a damn good guitar.

Most early reports I read suggested people bought one despite the radius as they normally preferred flatter.

Indeed they are buying because there is no other choice. If you want a PRS Strat, that's the one and only. With Fender, if you have £2300 spare, the list of Strats you can buy is vast.

It might be vast, but there still isn't an American made one with a 7.25" radius in the current range.

Sure, in which case you just need to spend *a bit more* to go Custom Shop...

Classic salesmanship...