Fender Princeton and Champ reissue prices...has the world gone mad?

SPECTRUM001

The 68 Vibrochamp has arrived, and I have spent some time with it.

What's most immediately interesting is just how much it responds to different guitars and pickups. I also think the bass and treble are your best friends with this amp.

European mains lead, but fortunately I have a kettle lead that fits ok. Firstly, it absolutely loves my Mustang with P90s. They make the amp sound big, deep with clarity and bite. However my other Mustang with single coils is coming through quite thin - so bass up to 7-8, and it suddenly soared forward (as if the bass allowed the Mustang's treble to shine).

My Tele gave the best response though (and I demoed with one on the weekend) - gritty and detailed, and lots of mid range punch. The reverb is amazingly powerful (kept it at 3) and the vibrato, much better and more sensitive than I originally thought.

I would also add that I am getting a hard sound - so if you want super clean, I think you would need to keep the volume down on 2-3, which is relatively quiet.

I then hooked up my Vox AV15 to compare and was struck by - 

1. Just how amazingly good the Vox is (and just how widescreen and expansive it sounds - especially for £150)
2. In some ways it actually sounds better than the Vibrochamp 

The Vox kind of has it all, but is missing just that little bit of secret ingredient (a little hard to explain - in fact I am not sure I can). It is like the Vox is giving the whole sound, but it is not quite bound together - whereas the Vibrochamp is 100% solid and there.

So, I am impressed with the Vibrochamp and enjoying a full and dominant tube experience. But, here's the but...

It has a hum that is really annoying me. I can hear this thing from 15 feet away (not when playing - only when idle), and it is not from the speaker (there is some speaker hiss - but only more significant if you turn the volume beyond 5), rather from the unit itself. Given I am interested for home use, I am surprised it is this noticeable - I am sure the model I demoed didn't do it. I guess it is possible this one is a dud, but reckon that's unlikely, and it is just the way they are.

Is it going to change my musical world ? Probably not.
Am I going to keep it, and is it good VFM ? Not sure - I need to hear more of it, and also find out if they all hum like this. 

Strange - I am really interested in this, but not quite sold yet...

Voxman

@SPECTRUM001 ;;That hum doesn't sound right if it's that loud. Might be worth trying it in a different location just in case its picking up mains hum or interference from lights. Might be more sensitive here as compared with your Vox. 

Its also possible there's a noisy valve in there.  But Im also wondering if it might have to do with the power lead or because its not a UK amp (where did you buy it from?). Do you have another lead to try? Might also be worth trying the supplied lead with an adapter.

SPECTRUM001

Thanks @Voxman. ;

Don’t think it is reacting to my electrics (no lights in use during the day), and I used my Vox mains (kettle) lead for power, so would have thought that ok. 

Could be a valve issue - whilst not playing at high gain today, when turning up the volume dial, there is a hiss that is totally fine, and then at 5 it is like someone suddenly turned on a white noise tap.

Unlikely I would be playing it much at that level though.

dindude

Mine has an idle hum too, sounds like transformer hum and I believe it’s more prominent in single ended valve designs. I guess you either live with it or not. In a shop context it would be way less apparent than a soft furnished pin drop quiet room at home. 

A bit more of a review from me now that I’m a few days in, rather than just “it sounds good”.

It sounded quite hard and mid-rangy at first, but after a few hours of playing at reasonable volume the speaker broke in a bit and it’s much more balanced.

Decent bass for such a small amp, I like a lot of bass so I have it on 10 with single coils and back it off to 7 ish for humbuckers and P90s. I’d like the bass to go to 11, then it would be perfect!

I rarely / never play amps without pedals, even with my “clean” setting I’m goosing it with a low gainer.  All my drive pedals sound great with this amp straight out of the gate.

The best bit for me - the volume range. At 2 to 3 on the dial, it’s a really quiet, “sit on the floor in front of the speaker” and not bother anyone, and a great Fender base tone, add my pedals and it’s the best very low valve amp experience I can remember (bigger valve amps sound really brittle at this volume IMO). The hum does grate a bit at this very low level sat in front of the speaker, but ho-hum.

Turn it up to 4 and it’s more room filling and starting to sound bigger - it’s quite directional, as small amps with 10 inches can be, sit off-axis and take in more of the room sound and it sounds massive for its size (caveat I’m goosing it with various drives at this stage).

Turn to 5 and there’s another leap in volume and things are getting to room saturation point and quite visceral, you don’t get this from any modeller, they sound more refined for sure but this gives the electric guitar “experience” at home volumes.

After about 6 it gets uncomfortably loud and proper power amp distortion and amp more ragged, but this is not what I want the amp for.

Trem is great, the depth can be really subtle and the higher depth goes just far enough.

The reverb, the weakest part for me - I’m very fussy about digital reverb, I’d go so far to say that the only digital reverb I’ve ever liked was the plate in the UA OX I had, it was outstanding. This is fine up to about 3 for ambience, the sort where you notice how dry it is when you turn it off. At higher registers is sounds, well like a digital reverb, it’s fine, but I miss the way a good valve spring reverb interacts with the trem at high settings.

This is replacing a Carr Rambler, the Carr is an unbelievable amp, but I only ever play at home and it just wants to let loose, and attenuating it to within an inch of its life feels (literally) so wrong.

As a Fender pedal platform at bedroom volumes, the ‘68 Vibro Champ is a winner for me. Bonus points for the fact that a re-valve will cost pennies and no need for re-biasing with a tech etc.

SPECTRUM001

I too have now had a bit more time with the 68 Vibrochamp.

@dindude (thanks for an interesting and accurate review) hit the nail on the head with regard to comparison to a modelling amp. My AV15 is more detailed with a broader tonal palette, but the VC is a proper amp/guitar ‘experience’. Gutsy and traditional in Fender tone, it really feels and sounds like I am playing live (oh dear - all my failings are way more apparent - but then when I hit the groove, it is lovely).

The amp is sensitive, and certainly bright at low volume - and as already mentioned, adjusts well to differing pickups.

A couple of questions for a tube novice -

1. It sounds much warmer and looser in tone after 30-40 mins playing. Is that the regular time for a tube amp to literally ‘warm up’ ?

2. Will the speaker become warmer or brighter as it breaks in ? I presume warmer.

3. Is it ok for the amp to (eg) switch on and play for an hour, switch off. Leave for an hour and switch on again - ie repeated ons and offs ?

thanks !

ICBM

SPECTRUM001 said:

1. It sounds much warmer and looser in tone after 30-40 mins playing. Is that the regular time for a tube amp to literally ‘warm up’ ?

Yes. Not all of them do that, but it's far from unusual.

SPECTRUM001 said:

2. Will the speaker become warmer or brighter as it breaks in ? I presume warmer.

Warmer, with more bottom-end and slightly louder.

SPECTRUM001 said:

3. Is it ok for the amp to (eg) switch on and play for an hour, switch off. Leave for an hour and switch on again - ie repeated ons and offs ?

Yes - what not to do is turn it on and off more often than about that. If you're going to be using it again with about an hour - and certainly within half an hour - leave it on. There's no hard and fast rule - heating and cooling cycles aren't good for amps... but on the other hand, leaving them cooking away shortens valve life, so it's swings and roundabouts.

dazzajl

I have one of these little pups here to audition and there are some things that jump straight out at you. It’s a LOT of cash for a little 5 watt 1x10! It doesn’t feel quite as well put together as something like the Marshall Origin, which is about the half the price. And it hums. More than it should. This might really annoy me in the wee hours when the volume is whisper low and the rest of the world is silent. 

Unless you have a very specific sized space you want to put one in, the Tone Master DR is just a far better all round proposition. For exactly the same money it’s quieter and louder. Deeper and more flexible, as easy to carry, more features for recording and playing live. The ability to play live and it’s better built too. 

But I think that if I don’t put it right back in the box today and send it away, it’s big big heart is going to win me over. It’s warm, fun and like an eager to please puppy. It plays very nicely with an attenuator too, so you can have it do that fabulous, pure rock n roll grind and roll back the noise to comfy house level when you need to be a little sensible. 

Damn 

Chuffola

Never had a valve amp at home that didn't irritate me with some level of hum and/ or hiss. Mentioned this in another thread and another fretboarder (can't remember who) said he'd never had an amp that had any hum or hiss.

I find that strange but could be I've just been unlucky or he has had amps much further up the price range where maybe that's not an issue - but then, this Vibrochamp doesn't sound cheap.

For that very reason, I don't think valve amps are the solution for strictly home playing at fairly quiet volumes if you're bothered by the background noise - I definitely am and once heard, it's difficult to ignore. I'm now fully on board the newer solid state amp train - Blues Cube Hot at the minute which is completely silent but would like to get a TMDR in due course, which I expect would be the same. Of course, I had a Roland JC22 a while back, bought from Gassage I think, and it hissed like a cat. So not all solid state amps are fit for home use either as it turns out!

SPECTRUM001

@dazzajl - yes, the hum is a pain. I thought it might be just mine, but seems to be the case with others too.

I take your point regarding the TMDR (and have been told that blind testing has proven it to be almost impossible to tell apart from its original valve incarnation). I did think this was a little physically larger than I was looking for, and not sure if it will give the gritty crunch at low volume that I am (immediately) getting from the VC.

I really like the VC (aside from the hum).

noisepolluter

My deluxe reverb 65RI has a background hiss which is clearly audible at home volumes but really doesn’t register when playing out.

I got used to it at home and hardly noticed it anymore until I got the Princeton 65RI which is genuinely whisper quiet. The only discernible noise (unless you’re really listening for it) is a bit of hum when the reverb’s turned up. That’s mostly caused by the reverb tank picking up the wiring from the ceiling lights downstairs, and my single coil guitars pick up much more than that unless played perfectly perpendicular!

dazzajl

I have no problem at all with a little amp hiss. Tends to be proportionate to the volume and very controllable. Amp hum is a bit of a different story and for a ‘quiet’ amp it’s nice to not have any but sometimes the trade off is worth it. I’ve had quite a few valve amps that haven’t hummed or even hissed, so they are out there and some very fabulous amps that make all sorts of little noises. 

My totally baseless and unscientific theory on the drone hum that sits unchanged under whatever the amp is doing is that smaller amps suffer the most. My guess has always been the proximity of the transformer to wiring or speaker magnet or some other techy thing. 

ICBM

Single-ended amps always hum a bit more than push-pulls, although that isn't the reason for the hiss.

The techy reason is that a push-pull inherently removes power supply hum - a bit like how a humbucking pickup works, the hum is opposite in each half of the output transformer winding and so cancels out - whereas a single-ended doesn't and has to rely purely on the power supply filtering.

An attenuator will fix both problems as well as allowing you to get power-amp overdrive at lower levels, but it does seem a bit annoying to have to spend yet more money on top of what is already an expensive amp, to do that.

dazzajl

ICBM said:

Single-ended amps always hum a bit more than push-pulls, although that isn't the reason for the hiss.

An attenuator will fix both problems as well as allowing you to get power-amp overdrive at lower levels, but it does seem a bit annoying to have to spend yet more money on top of what is already an expensive amp, to do that.

Interesting point Mr Guru. I was messing about with an attenuator today but think to listen for the hum to change. 

SPECTRUM001

dazzajl said:

ICBM said:

Single-ended amps always hum a bit more than push-pulls, although that isn't the reason for the hiss.

An attenuator will fix both problems as well as allowing you to get power-amp overdrive at lower levels, but it does seem a bit annoying to have to spend yet more money on top of what is already an expensive amp, to do that.

Interesting point Mr Guru. I was messing about with an attenuator today but think to listen for the hum to change. 

Really ?

The hum isn't coming from the speaker, rather from the back of the amp (I (perhaps naively) thought attenuators reduced the signal towards the speaker) ?

ICBM

SPECTRUM001 said:

The hum isn't coming from the speaker, rather from the back of the amp (I (perhaps naively) thought attenuators reduced the signal towards the speaker) ?

If the hum is mechanical transformer vibration being amplified by the chassis and cabinet then an attenuator won't help - but usually it's not (or not entirely).

Keefy

ICBM said:

..,

An attenuator will fix both problems as well as allowing you to get power-amp overdrive at lower levels, ...

As I learned for myself when I picked up my 5E3 in its original form - the seller demonstrated its awesome Stones-y overdrive by cranking it through an attenuator (it was about 9pm). When I got it home I found it hummed like Mr Hummy from Hum St, Hum Town, Humland. The alleged expert who built it had failed to orient the transformers correctly, so they were merrily coupling (oo-er missus) the whole time. The turret board looked like it had been assembled by a chimp wearing boxing gloves.

On the upside, it was really cheap, I sold the chassis and its dubious contents on eBay, and set off down the amp/building rabbit hole...

/ gratuitous thread diversion 

slowpilgrim

Has anyone a/b’d the new vibro champ against the original?