The Football Thread.

TTony

UnclePsychosis said:

I do wonder who exactly England fans who claim that winning a trophy playing boring football would be rubbish and wouldn't really count think they're kidding. Its a laughable assertion.

Don't think I've seen anyone say that boring-winning "wouldn't really count".  The frustration is, perhaps, more about the waste of talent.  England do have a number of genuine team-of-the-world players in the current team, but they are clearly not performing anywhere near their potential.  If they were, England should be winning, easily, and entertaining the fans too.

UnclePsychosis said:

I suspect that part of the "problem" is that national teams are followed by part time supporters who don't really understand football and are even more fickle than the regulars. 

True of some national teams - Scotland is a prime example where the tournament attendance was like a national day out whereas most  league matches (other than Celtic/Rangers) don't get 10k in the ground - but I don't think the same assertion holds true for most of the major teams.

Maybe it's that the national team supporter base is far wider and includes many fans who don't appreciate the football "business" as much as those who follow PL teams alone - ie that winning is all that matters, not entertaining the viewing public.  Plus the media can be very focused in their assessments - they don't have to assess 20 different PL teams over a weekend, all the attention is focused on one team.

UnclePsychosis said:

From the outside it's astounding that Southgate gets as hard a time as he does. He's done a fantastic job but for whatever reason the English media, and some of their fans, seem to have an almost pathological need for England to toxically self-destruct. 

He's getting a fair amount of criticism from other nation's media too.

UnclePsychosis

Have to pick you up on that post @TTony ;

The first point - about it not really counting - was said by someone on this thread a few pages ago.

As for the point about Scottish attendance, not sure what you're talking about. Scottish domestic football has pretty much the highest attendance per capita of anywhere in Europe. 

As for "England should be winning easily" - this is the whole problem in a nutshell. As a general rule, nobody wins international matches or tournaments "easily" in 2024. There's the odd drubbing here and there but the big boys swording everybody just isn't a thing and hasn't been for decades. The expectation is just toxic. 

thecolourbox

TTony said:

UnclePsychosis said:

I do wonder who exactly England fans who claim that winning a trophy playing boring football would be rubbish and wouldn't really count think they're kidding. Its a laughable assertion.

Don't think I've seen anyone say that boring-winning "wouldn't really count".  The frustration is, perhaps, more about the waste of talent.  England do have a number of genuine team-of-the-world players in the current team, but they are clearly not performing anywhere near their potential.  If they were, England should be winning, easily, and entertaining the fans too.

UnclePsychosis said:

I suspect that part of the "problem" is that national teams are followed by part time supporters who don't really understand football and are even more fickle than the regulars. 

True of some national teams - Scotland is a prime example where the tournament attendance was like a national day out whereas most  league matches (other than Celtic/Rangers) don't get 10k in the ground - but I don't think the same assertion holds true for most of the major teams.

Maybe it's that the national team supporter base is far wider and includes many fans who don't appreciate the football "business" as much as those who follow PL teams alone - ie that winning is all that matters, not entertaining the viewing public.  Plus the media can be very focused in their assessments - they don't have to assess 20 different PL teams over a weekend, all the attention is focused on one team.

UnclePsychosis said:

From the outside it's astounding that Southgate gets as hard a time as he does. He's done a fantastic job but for whatever reason the English media, and some of their fans, seem to have an almost pathological need for England to toxically self-destruct. 

He's getting a fair amount of criticism from other nation's media too.

It's kind of in their interests to knock the England camp isn't it? How often British media mocks the Germans or French etc

barnstorm

UnclePsychosis said:

I do wonder who exactly England fans who claim that winning a trophy playing boring football would be rubbish and wouldn't really count think they're kidding. Its a laughable assertion.

I suspect that part of the "problem" is that national teams are followed by part time supporters who don't really understand football and are even more fickle than the regulars. 

If Gareth Southgate picks up the trophy in a few weeks time the u-turn from Sinner to Saint will be even faster than it was when Diana died. 

From the outside it's astounding that Southgate gets as hard a time as he does. He's done a fantastic job but for whatever reason the English media, and some of their fans, seem to have an almost pathological need for England to toxically self-destruct.

You're right that fans and the media will tell themselves whatever story suits if England somehow win the tournament – but if they win, it's not going to be because of Southgate.

To be fair, there are few managers who seem capable of transforming a team. I think it's much harder to have that effect in football than in other sports. 

Making a national team more than the sum of its parts might be harder still. Less than the sum of its parts, though, just isn't acceptable. (And I'm a neutral, FWIW.)

UnclePsychosis

You guys are just proving the point over and over again.

If they win, it's not because of Southgate. If they lose, its because of Southgate. The man can't win, its hilarious that people think this toxicity is in any way fair or reasonable. 

DrCornelius

For me the frustration this time is that no matter what people say, the england team contains the Premier League player of the year , the Bundesligia top scorer and the La Ligua player of the season.

The quality drops a bit outside of that but I wouldn’t say we had a weak link anywhere except maybe left back.

For once , Spain , France, Italy, Holland , Belgium and Germany dont have teams to be feared - even Croatia who seem to have our number aren’t firing.

I went into the tournament thinking that if we can play to 90 pct of our potential then we have a good chance of winning it for once.  We are nowhere near it and I’m sorry, that’s the managers fault - the team look like they have no system or confidence which is crazy bearing in mind how long GS has been in charge.

Hopefully things will improve as I’d much rather us win it and play ugly but I suspect it’ll be out in the semis whilst playing ugly and that’s not good enough

barnstorm

UnclePsychosis said:

You guys are just proving the point over and over again.

If they win, it's not because of Southgate. If they lose, its because of Southgate. The man can't win, its hilarious that people think this toxicity is in any way fair or reasonable. 

But that's sort of the default for a national team manager: clearly the players have to put the ball in the net; your job is to take a group that doesn't play together much and pick an XI that allows as many players as possible to perform at their club level, and then you get out of the way.

There's not much evidence that Southgate can do it.

I don't hate the man or anything, or even mind if he stays in the job given that I'm not invested in England's success. I just don't want to watch his teams play football.

UnclePsychosis

"there's not much evidence that Southgate can do it"

-other than getting within penalty kicks of England's only tournament win for sixty years? 

-other than consistently getting further into tournaments than any other manager for decades? 

But apart from that... 

DrCornelius

UnclePsychosis said:

"there's not much evidence that Southgate can do it"

-other than getting within penalty kicks of England's only tournament win for sixty years? 

-other than consistently getting further into tournaments than any other manager for decades? 

But apart from that... 

Managers have a shelf life , even at international level . There comes a time when you need to freshen things up and I think people will look back and respect the work he has done and the results but I fear this is the beginning of the end for him 

barnstorm

At Euro 2020 they managed two goals in the group stage; beat an unusually poor German side; had a quarter-final against (I think?) the last-placed team to qualify from the group stage; and rode their luck to get past Denmark in the semis. Notably all while getting very significant contributions from two players at home on the left.

To your earlier point, though, none of the fans cared that England caught quite a few breaks, and nor will they if being on the easier side of the draw helps the team to go deep in the tournament this time.

guitars4you

Just heard a set of stats - We have the best defence stats in the Euro's - ie the XG against us - And with a new back 4 I was worried about such a situation

However our XG as an attack, is lower than that of the 3 relegated sides from the PL - Burnley, Sheff U and Luton 

menamestom

I think people are asking much less of Southgate than people realise.

 Be positive.  Be decisive.  

Negative football inviting pressure, may well be part of the national psyche in these competitions but the tactics are very negative and every option is about taking as few risks as possible.  

Players need to be played in position.

Boring is fine, but the current tactics will get exposed by any top level team.

Surely people can see this is an issue.  

I think he will change it a bit going forward and we will improve.   You have to do something tactically to get behind the opposition defence at some point.  We have the players to do that on the bench.

scrumhalf

I hear so many people moaning about Southgate but he's taken a team of average players with one or two decent players and done reasonably well.

What hasn't helped has been the media's incessant need for quotes and post-match interviews in the hope that they can catch him out and make themselves look big and clever.

Southgate is never going to start an interview with "before you ask me any questions I have to say that we were shit tonight and I'll be tearing them all new arseholes because of the utter dross they served up for ninety minutes".

Different sections of the media have had it in for every England manager with the possible exception of Joe Mercer's temporary stint.

UnclePsychosis

scrumhalf said:

I hear so many people moaning about Southgate but he's taken a team of average players with one or two decent players and done reasonably well.

What hasn't helped has been the media's incessant need for quotes and post-match interviews in the hope that they can catch him out and make themselves look big and clever.

Southgate is never going to start an interview with "before you ask me any questions I have to say that we were shit tonight and I'll be tearing them all new arseholes because of the utter dross they served up for ninety minutes".

Different sections of the media have had it in for every England manager with the possible exception of Joe Mercer's temporary stint.

Indeed. 

I'm reminded of a Charlie Brooker rant about Andy Murray - where the British media had spent 75 years waiting for a Brit to win Wimbledon, then Andy Murray turns up, and all they could do was complain that he's a bit dour*. I think the exact quote was "what do you want, a tennis champion or Mr Fucking Tumble? Because you're not getting both". 

(*the really ironic thing is that Murray actually has a cracking sense of humour. It's just too deadpan for your average Daily Mail reader to understand without a laugh track.) 

Rocker

I think the real England will emerge in the KO stage, starting tomorrow. In KO football there is no point in looking over your shoulder to see what is happening in other games. Whatever happens in the other games is irrelevant, just go and win this one game. It results in a different mindset to group stage games. The ‘win or go home’ reality changes everything. The same applies to the other teams too so we can expect a lot more positivity and a few goals too. 

guitars4you

Swiss deserve that - better side by a big margin so far

tony99

UnclePsychosis said:

I do wonder who exactly England fans who claim that winning a trophy playing boring football would be rubbish and wouldn't really count think they're kidding. Its a laughable assertion.

It certainly would be. Who said it?

LionAquaLooper

Yep Italy are going out. Been poor since group stage.

TTony

guitars4you said:

Swiss deserve that - better side by a big margin so far

Agreed.  Doubly!

guitars4you

TTony said:

guitars4you said:

Swiss deserve that - better side by a big margin so far

Agreed.  Doubly!

They look so poor do Italy

Swiss look very handy