New Fractal multifx thingybob

mellowsun

monquixote said:

Ultimately I'd buy something if it had the sound quality, but I didn't have to be bothered by the details to get an excellent sound. 

I don't even play with the EQ on my amp.

+1. Can't understand why no one has addressed this in the market yet. Another missed opportunity for Fractal, I think.

Drew_TNBD

To be honest, I was hoping for a higher quality Line 6 M9/M13 type deal, with FAS levels of sound quality, and a reasonable price. I'd pay about £700 for such a thing. But this looks like a more crippled version of the Axe FX to me, throwing everything in except the amp modelling and charging £1200-£1400 for it.

I like the 4-cable method stuff. I like that it's supposedly noise-free and does not destroy your tone. I like the switching functionality.

It's really only the price I dislike. Looking at my board now, which I've slimmed down somewhat:

Ernie Ball Vol Jnr - £100
Dunlop 535Q - £130
Phase 90 - £75
Line 6 M9 - £339 brand new or £220 second hand. I got mine second hand for £200.
Boo Tubescreamer - £58
Pedal Power 2+ - £130
Half built DIY midi controller powered by the MidiCPU from HighlyLiquid - £50

Approximately £760. with the FX8 you still need a real wah and volume pedal, or two expression pedals, which can cost just as much unless you DIY them. So you're looking at almost twice the amount... for very similar functionality.

I can't quite justify it I don't think, even though being able to consolidate everything to a single unit, even including amp channel switching, is quite a good proposition.

Jalapeno

Will appeal to the hardy twiddlers no doubt.  The GUI will certainly be easier than programming it via the footpad, like the M13 - that made life too hard for me.

I waste enough time in front of a computer screen already - anything that requires more is badness !

ThorpyFX

I just wish there was a replacement for the TC electronic g system on the cards. I'd love one that was more upto date

mike_l

IMO this will be good for those who want the same sounds everynight/gig (IE touring musicians).

For those like me who want something that's easier to tweak (IE turn 1 or 2 controls) then pedal will be better.

I'll stick with pedals for my own use, but can see how this would be useful to a lot of guitarists.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

To be honest, I was hoping for a higher quality Line 6 M9/M13 type deal, with FAS levels of sound quality, and a reasonable price. I'd pay about £700 for such a thing. But this looks like a more crippled version of the Axe FX to me, throwing everything in except the amp modelling and charging £1200-£1400 for it.

I like the 4-cable method stuff. I like that it's supposedly noise-free and does not destroy your tone. I like the switching functionality.

It's really only the price I dislike. Looking at my board now, which I've slimmed down somewhat:

Ernie Ball Vol Jnr - £100
Dunlop 535Q - £130
Phase 90 - £75
Line 6 M9 - £339 brand new or £220 second hand. I got mine second hand for £200.
Boo Tubescreamer - £58
Pedal Power 2+ - £130
Half built DIY midi controller powered by the MidiCPU from HighlyLiquid - £50

Approximately £760. with the FX8 you still need a real wah and volume pedal, or two expression pedals, which can cost just as much unless you DIY them. So you're looking at almost twice the amount... for very similar functionality.

I can't quite justify it I don't think, even though being able to consolidate everything to a single unit, even including amp channel switching, is quite a good proposition.

But technically, if you want to add another pedal, you have to buy another pedal, and find a way of routing it/fitting it on your board etc.  

You know exactly what you want, and what works for you - you're probably unlikely to need to buy more pedals unless you get bored and want to flip like for like (e.g. change delays again).  But for some people it would be worth it.

I agree the sums don't make sense for yourself, but they will make sense for some people.

Also you've cheated on your sums.  If you go all new prices it isn't £760 it would be £882 including the new M9, plus you've not included a board.  Just picking a good quality non hardcase board as I can't think of any boards that don't come with cases (PT2 softcase) would add another £100 or so assuming that is big enough, then you're nearing £1k.

The FX8 would need expression pedals, but once you've got them then in theory you're done.  That would probably take it to 50% more rather than 100% more cost.

... I still think you are best off sticking with the individual pedals approach though!

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Drew_fx said:

To be honest, I was hoping for a higher quality Line 6 M9/M13 type deal, with FAS levels of sound quality, and a reasonable price. I'd pay about £700 for such a thing. But this looks like a more crippled version of the Axe FX to me, throwing everything in except the amp modelling and charging £1200-£1400 for it.

I like the 4-cable method stuff. I like that it's supposedly noise-free and does not destroy your tone. I like the switching functionality.

It's really only the price I dislike. Looking at my board now, which I've slimmed down somewhat:

Ernie Ball Vol Jnr - £100
Dunlop 535Q - £130
Phase 90 - £75
Line 6 M9 - £339 brand new or £220 second hand. I got mine second hand for £200.
Boo Tubescreamer - £58
Pedal Power 2+ - £130
Half built DIY midi controller powered by the MidiCPU from HighlyLiquid - £50

Approximately £760. with the FX8 you still need a real wah and volume pedal, or two expression pedals, which can cost just as much unless you DIY them. So you're looking at almost twice the amount... for very similar functionality.

I can't quite justify it I don't think, even though being able to consolidate everything to a single unit, even including amp channel switching, is quite a good proposition.

But technically, if you want to add another pedal, you have to buy another pedal, and find a way of routing it/fitting it on your board etc.  

You know exactly what you want, and what works for you - you're probably unlikely to need to buy more pedals unless you get bored and want to flip like for like (e.g. change delays again).  But for some people it would be worth it.

I agree the sums don't make sense for yourself, but they will make sense for some people.

Also you've cheated on your sums.  If you go all new prices it isn't £760 it would be £882 including the new M9, plus you've not included a board.  Just picking a good quality non hardcase board as I can't think of any boards that don't come with cases (PT2 softcase) would add another £100 or so assuming that is big enough, then you're nearing £1k.

The FX8 would need expression pedals, but once you've got them then in theory you're done.  That would probably take it to 50% more rather than 100% more cost.

... I still think you are best off sticking with the individual pedals approach though!

lol. I haven't cheated! Those are the prices I paid!

Also I didn't include a board, because you would need one of those regardless of what setup you'd use. It's not like the board is an extra cost of *not* going with the FX8.

Tbh, I just think it's over-priced. I think they're misjudged the multi-fx and amp user crowd slightly. They're not the same people as the Axe FX crowd.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

lol. I haven't cheated! Those are the prices I paid!

Ok we're coming from different angles then.

I thought you were posting the new costs of what you use vs the new cost of the FX8.

If you're comparing what you paid which includes second hand gear then well of course you're not cheating, but it isn't a fair comparison.  I guess I get annoyed easily when people for example say amp companies need to bring out new amps - so they do - but then they immediately compare them to the price of a used amp and complain the price is too high.   I do on the whole try to buy second hand to save money, but companies do still need to be able to sell new stuff.  But of course used stuff is cheaper.

I guess I don't like the 'race to the bottom' mentality... dunno if you clocked it but someone called out Karzog's price for Recabinet 4 pre-order vs TSE X50 2.3 on the sneap board (which is also on special offer).  IIRC he rhetorically asked if people felt 'silly' paying more for Recabinet based on a higher price.  I almost called him out on it, but it would've been a waste of typing and someone else already did it and the world moved on.  

Drew_fx said:

Also I didn't include a board, because you would need one of those regardless of what setup you'd use. It's not like the board is an extra cost of *not* going with the FX8.

Understood - again, I thought you were pricing up your whole setup as new cost vs the as new cost of the FX8.

Drew_fx said:

Tbh, I just think it's over-priced. I think they're misjudged the multi-fx and amp user crowd slightly. They're not the same people as the Axe FX crowd.

I agree that these people are often different people.  With regards to the price, as I said it is cheaper than I expected it to be but that doesn't mean I think it is cheap!

I think they massively missed a trick by not having it integrate with the Axe FX like the MFC does.  It costs too much for me right now.  But anyway I'm sitting on the fence about selling my pedalboard.  I don't use it anymore, but we're in a recording phase not a writing one.  

But when I last unsuccesfully tried to 'go digital' we were in a writing phase and I got frustrated at not having direct control over pedals (I tried replacing my board with a GT8).  It didn't work so I went back to a real board.  Over time I stripped back my board to be really simple, so I don't even have modulation pedals (I just used the modulated setting on the DD20), as I didn't like tapdancing, and also I sold my EQ pedal which was actually quite useful because I wanted some more cash towards my current rig.

When I got the Axe I knew exactly what I needed it to do, and it handles it really easily.  So I'm really happy with it.

I do wonder that once this album is out of the way and we start refining new tracks in the rehearsal room that I'll miss being able to directly control all the knobs.  It doesn't really matter if I screw up changes in the rehearsal room, and I can very likely program everything I need into the Axe FX so it is easy to switch once I know what I want.  

Basically I'm wondering if I'll want to use a real board in 4CM with the Axe during writing/refining sessions... 

ChrisMusic

Costings ?

If, as seems likely, the FX8 retails new at circa £1,200 then that compares in value to:

Eight £150 pedals, and looking at the classifieds, it's not hard to find second hand prices in that range and higher, let alone the new RRPs.

Obviously you should really only compare second hand FX pedals with a projected second hand price for the FX8, but to err is human.  ~ and to "arr" is a pirate !

But then that is a bit disingenuous, as for a pedal board, well, you will need the board, power supplies (probably isolated - Gig Rig prices anybody?), and then some quality cables to connect it all up, with maybe a patch bay box and buffer too.

You either need a different mindset to approach and feel comfortable with multi-FX, or to overcome the fear factor and learning curve of moving on from limited but simple parameters and dedicated control knobs.

Watching the simplicity with which @Clarky manipulates the Axe-FX shows that it can easily become intuitive and second nature, if you have the mindset, ability and desire to make this work for you.

It is an exceptionally flexible working tool, and anything new takes a little thought and perseverance to become familiar with.

If you have the motivation and desire it's less complex than a mobile phone !

Maybe it's not the right approach for every one though, especially if cut down simplicity is your goal.

All IMHO, obviously

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay;371215" said:

Drew_fx said:



lol. I haven't cheated! Those are the prices I paid!



Ok we're coming from different angles then.

I thought you were posting the new costs of what you use vs the new cost of the FX8.

If you're comparing what you paid which includes second hand gear then well of course you're not cheating, but it isn't a fair comparison.  I guess I get annoyed easily when people for example say amp companies need to bring out new amps - so they do - but then they immediately compare them to the price of a used amp and complain the price is too high.   I do on the whole try to buy second hand to save money, but companies do still need to be able to sell new stuff.  But of course used stuff is cheaper.

No boss, all of those prices were new prices except for the Line 6 M9, which is why I pointed out the two prices.

I guess I don't like the 'race to the bottom' mentality... dunno if you clocked it but someone called out Karzog's price for Recabinet 4 pre-order vs TSE X50 2.3 on the sneap board (which is also on special offer).  IIRC he rhetorically asked if people felt 'silly' paying more for Recabinet based on a higher price.  I almost called him out on it, but it would've been a waste of typing and someone else already did it and the world moved on. 

Yeah I saw that.

Drew_fx said:Also I didn't include a board, because you would need one of those regardless of what setup you'd use. It's not like the board is an extra cost of *not* going with the FX8.





Understood - again, I thought you were pricing up your whole setup as new cost vs the as new cost of the FX8.

Nah I was essentially doing a feature like-for-like. I didn't include the stuff you'd have for a board in either case, because those are always purchases that are going to be there.

In essence, I can get the features of the FX8 (or the ones I would use anyway) for half the price. Which makes it a fairly tough sale. The only thing that I don't have is the "mothership" aspect of it, where it controls all of my pedals and my amp at the same time. But that isn't worth an extra £600 to me.

Drew_fx said:Tbh, I just think it's over-priced. I think they're misjudged the multi-fx and amp user crowd slightly. They're not the same people as the Axe FX crowd.












I agree that these people are often different people.  With regards to the price, as I said it is cheaper than I expected it to be but that doesn't mean I think it is cheap!

I think they massively missed a trick by not having it integrate with the Axe FX like the MFC does.  It costs too much for me right now.  But anyway I'm sitting on the fence about selling my pedalboard.  I don't use it anymore, but we're in a recording phase not a writing one. 

I guess they didn't want to canabalize sales.

Clarky

looks to me like the FX8 is pretty much an AF2 without amps and cabs..

I reckon that makes it FAS' approximate equivalent to the TC-Elec G-System

thinking on it.. if you're into multi-channel amps that are MIDI switchable / programmable [like the Diezel VH4 and Herbert where I think you can store 128 presets] I could imagine having the FX8 as fx-unit and controller as being a highly flexible rig..

ICBM

This actually looks interesting to me. I have no interest whatever in amp modelling, but I do like effects. It's not that expensive either - it cost me something like £1500 to put my analogue pedalboard together, which has a dozen carefully chosen (but now virtually set in stone) pedals on it, so a far more flexible unit which can cover essentially any effect would be cheap even at the same price, if it sounded equally good, which I have no doubt it could.

The only problem is that I'm not really playing the sort of music which justifies *any* large-scale pedalboard now - I haven't used my big analogue board for several years, and I do sometimes wonder if I should just break it up and sell it. But then would I want to spend as much on one of these? Dunno.

At least it's not called an "Axe" anything .

EricTheWeary

I just wonder if there is much of a market for a pro floor based multi FX. If you are at the end where you have guitar techs then you want this stuff in a rack ( Axe FX or otherwise) were the tech can access it. There probably is a market for those who bought M13/9's and the like but found them frustrating but this trebles the price and increases the complexity so it's hard to imagine many sales there. You're not going to be doing Dog and Duck gigs with these and you're not going to be playing Download so it's a relatively narrow band of players in there who need complicated multi FX and who want the technology at their feet.

Drew_TNBD

EricTheWeary said:

I just wonder if there is much of a market for a pro floor based multi FX. If you are at the end where you have guitar techs then you want this stuff in a rack ( Axe FX or otherwise) were the tech can access it. There probably is a market for those who bought M13/9's and the like but found them frustrating but this trebles the price and increases the complexity so it's hard to imagine many sales there. You're not going to be doing Dog and Duck gigs with these and you're not going to be playing Download so it's a relatively narrow band of players in there who need complicated multi FX and who want the technology at their feet.

See, I actually think you WOULD play down t'Dog n t'Duck with this sort of thing. I mean... it really is just a Line 6 M13 on steroids, and they are the *exact* kinds of players who will want one. You see looooooaaaaaaddddssss of M13's and M9's on pro-boards, semi-pro boards, and amateur alike. They have universal appeal.

I think this has universal appeal, but it does not have universal friendliness to the wallet. In a world where even touring muso's are struggling to make cash, and where well known and reputable bands are struggling to pay the bills... the line between "professional" and "amateur" is constantly blurring.

I'd be putting money aside for one of these if they were £600 or £700. At £1200-£1300, it's a bigger ask. so I have to evaluate it on "what do I need from it?" and "what will it actually give me that I don't already have?" and the answer is "not that much" to both of them.

guitarfishbay

Yeah makes sense they want to keep them as separate products.  

I wonder if Cliff, or whoever designed the 101, has small feet though?  Looking at photos where the MFC is next to regular pedals I just can't see me liking using it.

What I'd really love to see is a baby MFC, less switches but better spacing.  From the looks of it the FX 8 might have better spacing at least... for now the Pod is ticking the boxes I need ticked but it is a little annoying to be limited to 4 scenes.

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Yeah makes sense they want to keep them as separate products.  

I wonder if Cliff, or whoever designed the 101, has small feet though?  Looking at photos where the MFC is next to regular pedals I just can't see me liking using it.

What I'd really love to see is a baby MFC, less switches but better spacing.  From the looks of it the FX 8 might have better spacing at least... for now the Pod is ticking the boxes I need ticked but it is a little annoying to be limited to 4 scenes.

I didn't get on with the layout of the MFC. Switches were too close together and the heights between each row were too shallow. I felt really awkward aiming for one of the switches on the back row. M13 feels loads better, but it's midi implementation is shocking.

I'd actually like to get an old knackered M13 chassis and convert it over to a MidiCPU thing. Would be a great midi controller.

Clarky

the things I'm least fond of on the MFC are:

- the switches: I prefer the Roland / Boss type switches.. they're a larger target and have a much shorter throw / nicer action

- the switches [comapared with the 2120 and FC-300 controllers] are rather high from the ground.. it's not a huge deal, as I'm used to it now.. but I like things low and easy to get at..

initially I wasn't fond of having 3 rows, but I'm used to it now to the point where I'd find it restrictive going back to a controller that only has 10 switches..

Clarky

@Drew_fx are you getting the itch for a Herbert / VH4 with MIDI control via a G-System or FX8 [or similar] yet???

if I wasn't a multi-fx type user, that would be my rig without any doubt.. I reckon it'd sound mental too..

monquixote

Drew_fx said:

See, I actually think you WOULD play down t'Dog n t'Duck with this sort of thing. I mean... it really is just a Line 6 M13 on steroids, and they are the *exact* kinds of players who will want one. You see looooooaaaaaaddddssss of M13's and M9's on pro-boards, semi-pro boards, and amateur alike. They have universal appeal.

Yeah I'm completely with you on this. If I could afford it and it was easy to use I'd be all over it and I'm only doing pub covers.

I now have a couple of Strymons on my board so that's nearly half of the budget in two pedals, but I think it's all about how much time it takes to make it sound good. I want to be able to say "RAT" and a "Phase 90" and that's what I get I don't want to be defining the characteristics of the cliping diodes and the filering etc. 

Drew_TNBD

Clarky said:

@Drew_fx are you getting the itch for a Herbert / VH4 with MIDI control via a G-System or FX8 [or similar] yet???

if I wasn't a multi-fx type user, that would be my rig without any doubt.. I reckon it'd sound mental too..

Nah mate. Actually right now I'm going in this direction:

Diezel D-Moll as my main amp, with three sounds. Kemper with some FX-loop profiles of the D-Moll, with certain settings to give me another two sounds. Output of my pedalboard into the Kemper. Kemper direct output (without any modelling on it) into the front of my Diezel D-Moll. Ground lift enabled to remove the noise. Kemper plugged into the FX loop of my Diezel D-Moll. Midi controller switching both the amp and the Kemper at the same time. Giving me access to the five sounds I traditionally used when my main amp was a Fryette Sig: X.

Clean (very clean)
Rhythm without boost (slightly on the edge break up clean)
Rhythm with boost (tight low-gain rhythms)
Lead without boost (tight chugga-chugga metal rhythms)
Lead with boost (my main high gain sound for rhythms and leads)

It also allows me to use the four FX slots on the Kemper as extra effects too. So it'll be:

Ernie Ball Volume
Dunlop 535Q
Phase 90
Line 6 M9
Boo Instruments 808 tubescreamer clone
DIY Midi controller with 5 footswitches (amp channel selector basically)
Diezel D-Moll or Kemper
Egnater Tourmaster