The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

Have we talked Sauber yet?  Alfa tie-up, new livery (concept) already unveiled, and Leclerc and Ericson confirmed for next year. 

Livery isn't bad, at least better than this year's. Driver lineup is a little dull (still Ericson? I guess he brings loads of cash)

Fretwired

Garthy said:

You're using fictitious teams as examples that only exist in your head but it's me who is obtuse? It was a simple statement, the teams would walk if F1 became a spec chassis & engine series- it could not be clearer that statement was about the existing teams currently competing.

Reducing cost has been going on since the 1950s, its nothing new. If a team has $50m, it'll spend $50m. If it has $300m, it will spend $300m. Teams in F1 come and go, with a few exceptions. The average life span of an F1 team under the same ownership is 3 seasons. The saying "to make a small fortune in motor racing start with a large one" exists for a reason.

Your comment about Williams - well where to start. They've made a fundamental error with their chassis so Paddy Lowe wrote the season off as they discovered this far too late to consider a B-spec car. Their wind tunnel is one of the best in the business and they really did bet the house on it when it was built because as soon as it was completed RBR lobbied really bloody hard to cut wind tunnel time by an enormous amount, having just acquired great CFD technology which Williams couldn't afford having just spent every spare penny on a wind tunnel that could barely be used due to the new rules limiting run time. CFD is also limited for WCC entrants, but RBR use Red Bull Technologies to get around this which is what inspired Ferrari to help Hass as much as they did in 2015.

Read what I have written. Brawn's idea (not mine) is for possibly a chassis and engine for new entrants or teams at the back of the field. Haas wouldn't have been able to enter F1 with a white-box solution from Ferrari (for that's what it was - chassis, car, engine, gearbox etc). The cost of entry is too high which is why you are not seeing any new entrants at the moment, only people leaving (Manor). Aston Martin may join, but they are partnering with Red Bull so will look to fund an engine, but only if the regs/costs are simplified.

And Williams is basically broke (Claire Williams interview) as it doesn't have the budget of the big teams -  remind me what Williams have done in the last 8 years. They have been hanging on. Their last win was the Spanish Grand Prix in 2012. The last pole was 2014. The teams highest placing was third in the championship. They couldn't convince Alonso to jump ship so are in the position of have two average drivers for next season. (they seem to be cooling on Kubica). They are also working with Jaguar Racing in Forumual-E so you may seem them switch at some point.

And the risk for F1 is that Mercedes, Renault and Honda decide in the mid-2020s that Formula E is more relevant for their respective road car programmes and pull out. Brawn was quite open that the future for F1 lies in the raw power of a petrol engine, high speed, noise and entertainment. Ferrari would probably stay as they sell super cars, but you'd be left with independent teams that won't have the big budgets of the car makers. Mercedes are entering Forumula-E. How long will they be prepared to finance two teams?

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Have we talked Sauber yet?  Alfa tie-up, new livery (concept) already unveiled, and Leclerc and Ericson confirmed for next year. 

Livery isn't bad, at least better than this year's. Driver lineup is a little dull (still Ericson? I guess he brings loads of cash)

It looks cool but there are several mock-ups. The red one looks seriously cool but could be close to Ferrari's colour scheme although it is the darker red in the picture above. I hope they get decent funding and compete although the cynic in me thinks that as back markers they will be mobile chicanes when the Mercs catch them .. :-)

chillidoggy

So the FIA have 'tweaked' the grid penalty formula to make it 'easier for fans to understand'.

I've just seen what they're done. They still haven't got it, have they?

thumpingrug

If its no more than this,

A change to the power unit penalty system was also approved, whereby if a driver incurs a penalty exceeding 15 grid places he will be required to start the race from the back of the starting grid.

Then no they really haven't understood the annoyance from both teams and fans. 

stickyfiddle

Of course, because the FIA are still the same idiots they’ve always been. Liberty are only fully in control of the commercial bits. 

What they actually need to do is ditch the “3 engines per season” bollocks, but Mercedes will always block any change to that because it’s in their favour.

When end we get the next full rule change in 2020/21, we have a chance of really good changes that will benefit the sport as a whole. 

not_the_dj

I just finished reading Jenson Button's autobiog....are there any other F1 biogs you guys would recommend?

(I had the Mark Webber one on my amazon wishlist and it looks that that'll be under the tree on the 25th).

chillidoggy

My son bought me Adrian Newey's book 'How to build a car' for my birthday, but I haven't started reading it as yet.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

not_the_dj said:

I just finished reading Jenson Button's autobiog....are there any other F1 biogs you guys would recommend?

Martin Brundle's 'Working The Wheel' is a great one. Not strictly an autobiography per se, but a great read for any F1 fan.

Jackie Stewart's 'Winning Is Not Enough' is another good one. 

chillidoggy

So when is Williams going to announce the driver line-up for next year?

I'm thinking it must be a pain in the arse for those driver under consideration, because they are surely unable to commit to any other race series, or drive, until the result is published. And that might potentially leave them without any drive at all. Considering all the other rules FIA impose, they could state that driver line-ups must be announced by a certain date/time. Even the football world does something like that with the transfer windows.

chillidoggy

http://www.planetf1.com/news/kubica-out-of-contention-for-williams-seat-report/

Octafish

stickyfiddle said:

Of course, because the FIA are still the same idiots they’ve always been. Liberty are only fully in control of the commercial bits. 

What they actually need to do is ditch the “3 engines per season” bollocks, but Mercedes will always block any change to that because it’s in their favour.

When end we get the next full rule change in 2020/21, we have a chance of really good changes that will benefit the sport as a whole. 

 It was Ferrari who recently blocked the lobbying by Red Bull to increase the engine allocation, not Mercedes...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/133113/red-bull-engine-rule-change-bid-derailed

HAL9000

Fretwired said:

Interesting article with Charlie Whiting and others ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/sports/autoracing/f1-needs-more-competition.html

More downforce = less racing. However, no-one at the top seems to want to admit that. For Charlie Whiting to say the changes were successful seems, to me, to be ignoring the statistics that show just how little overtaking took place this season.

rocktron

not_the_dj said:

I just finished reading Jenson Button's autobiog....are there any other F1 biogs you guys would recommend?

(I had the Mark Webber one on my amazon wishlist and it looks that that'll be under the tree on the 25th).

The Mark Webber biography is available for £1 at. . .  you've guessed it. . . Poundland!!!! 

Strangely, they had the Alex Zanardi biography for £1 during Christmas 2016. I bought two of those and gave one to a friend.

chillidoggy

I see Williams is not announcing the driver line-up until January now. The smart money is on Sirotkin, mainly due to $$$$$$.

chillidoggy

Grand Prix.com is reporting Kubica is back in the running, as, via Nico Rosberg, Williams has been offered $1 million a race for him to drive.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Grand Prix.com is reporting Kubica is back in the running, as, via Nico Rosberg, Williams has been offered $1 million a race for him to drive.

Pathetic ... the FIA should ban this sort of thing. Seats should be awarded to drivers on merit not on how much cash they bring to the team. Kubica obviously has some issues. I hope this isn't a ploy to get Sirotkin's backers to pay more.

HAL9000

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Grand Prix.com is reporting Kubica is back in the running, as, via Nico Rosberg, Williams has been offered $1 million a race for him to drive.

Pathetic ... the FIA should ban this sort of thing. Seats should be awarded to drivers on merit not on how much cash they bring to the team. Kubica obviously has some issues. I hope this isn't a ploy to get Sirotkin's backers to pay more.

Is motor racing the only sport where this happens? I can’t imagine, say, a football team in the top echelon of the sport taking on players because they bring sponsorship. I know there are issues about how the cash is divvied up but surely there’s enough money in Formula 1 to be able to employ drivers solely on merit.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

HAL9000 said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Grand Prix.com is reporting Kubica is back in the running, as, via Nico Rosberg, Williams has been offered $1 million a race for him to drive.

Pathetic ... the FIA should ban this sort of thing. Seats should be awarded to drivers on merit not on how much cash they bring to the team. Kubica obviously has some issues. I hope this isn't a ploy to get Sirotkin's backers to pay more.

Is motor racing the only sport where this happens? I can’t imagine, say, a football team in the top echelon of the sport taking on players because they bring sponsorship. I know there are issues about how the cash is divvied up but surely there’s enough money in Formula 1 to be able to employ drivers solely on merit.

I remember Colonel Gaddafi's son was signed to 3 different Serie A football teams in the mid-00s. Perugia, Udinese and Sampdoria. 

Though I'm sure that was entirely down to his amazing talent, nothing to do with any financial transactions involving his filthy rich despot of a father... 

Fretwired

HAL9000 said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Grand Prix.com is reporting Kubica is back in the running, as, via Nico Rosberg, Williams has been offered $1 million a race for him to drive.

Pathetic ... the FIA should ban this sort of thing. Seats should be awarded to drivers on merit not on how much cash they bring to the team. Kubica obviously has some issues. I hope this isn't a ploy to get Sirotkin's backers to pay more.

Is motor racing the only sport where this happens? I can’t imagine, say, a football team in the top echelon of the sport taking on players because they bring sponsorship. I know there are issues about how the cash is divvied up but surely there’s enough money in Formula 1 to be able to employ drivers solely on merit.

Not in the Premier League.

I'm just confused. The techies at Williams say they have a good car for 2018; they have the Merc engine so surely a really good driver can win them more in prize money in the constructors championship than sponsorship.