The F1 thread

skullfunkerry · December 2021

poopot said:

Can’t wait for Karen Horner to address him as “Sir” next season!…

https://talksport.com/sport/motorsport/1002071/lewis-hamilton-knighthood-formula-one/

poke that up your hole red bull!!!!

But he's already been knighted? He's been Sir Lewis for a year or so now...

EDIT: just had a look... he was given the title in last year's honours list but he hasn't actually been knighted yet.

TimmyO · December 2021

menamestom said:

Boromedic said:

Michael Masi and the FIA picked the champion, whatever else happened is fair game, you win some, you lose some but the FIA decided who won yesterday and that's not on.

If they were consciously picking the champion they would have let MV take the position back at the start of the race. All the commentators thought it should have been handed back, if there was a scheme to get MV the win sure that non-controversial decision should have happened?

I think it was more incompetence, inconsistency and being swayed at the end to have a 1 lap racing conclusion, rather than let the race and under SC, which it should have done.

The commentators, in the heat of the moment, were wrong. The corner includes the braking zone - the gap WAS handed back to what it was at the start of the braking zone

Cols · December 2021

From what I could see, Verstappen went for his usual “Out of the way, Max coming through” overtake, running straight on to the limit of the track and giving the other driver the choice of an accident or getting out of the way. Hamilton - once again - ran off track to avoid getting torpedoed by Max.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

Cols said:

From what I could see, Verstappen went for his usual “Out of the way, Max coming through” overtake, running straight on to the limit of the track and giving the other driver the choice of an accident or getting out of the way. Hamilton - once again - ran off track to avoid getting torpedoed by Max.

This

TimmyO said:

The commentators, in the heat of the moment, were wrong. The corner includes the braking zone - the gap WAS handed back to what it was at the start of the braking zone

And this.

Max was only ahead because he braked so late there was no way of getting around the corner without pushing the other guy off. In other incidents we've often seen drivers in similar positions get penalised for it, never mind penalising the one getting squeezed out. Had Max braked at an appropriate early point to get around the corner while leaving room he wouldn't have been ahead, and at the beginning of this season that was the rule ("All the time you have to leave a space", from Alonso about Rosberg iirc). This year they've let Max not leave a space when fighting Hamilton, until Brazil where they didn't even require him to stay on the track himself.

The FIA has consistently moved the goalposts for Max ahead of everyone because it's exciting to watch, but it's getting really tiring for the rest of us.

You only have to look at Max's move on Sainz after the pitstops to see that Max knows how to do it. Sainz wasn't even trying and he still left him room.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-verstappen-picks-off-sainz-at-turn-6.1718949813873911804.html

A lot of Brundle's commentary this week felt like he was making an effort to be harsher on Lewis having read comments that he's biased towards the Brits, tbh. He was basically the only one in the entire Sky team defending Masi at the end as well.

victorludorum · December 2021

People are still watching F1?

PC_Dave · December 2021

victorludorum said:

People are still watching F1?

Yes. Clearly, given the amount of people commenting on this thread. Your point?

This really winds me up - it's like people going to the BBC Sport website and logging in just so they can say this very thing on the comments section. If you don't like it, fine, but others do, so save your energy and try and be positive somewhere rather than negative here. I despise football, but I don't waste my time and others by going to those threads and saying such things.

Simonh · December 2021

I know it is the daily mail but I am not yet seeing this reported on PlanetF1 but apparently Merc can only appeal to an FIA panel and not the court of arbitration.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10305759/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Mercedes-claim-Court-Arbitration-Sport.html

Haych · December 2021

Whether Mercedes appeal or not, and if they do, whether they win or not, the damage is done.

Mercedes might get some redress, financially or otherwise but the reputation of the sport is now well dodgy, in my humble opinion, more so than it ever has been before - and it's had some pretty dodgy moments.

I think it would be wrong for the WDC to change because of legal action, as far as I care, that ship has sailed, Max is now world champion and that should stand, although it will always do so in the same way Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France wins always had a question mark over them (until Oprah).

Hopefully F1 will recover from this and hopefully it will be the catalyst for change at the top and in the FIA that's desperately needed, because they are out of touch with the sport and with the fans.

Boromedic · December 2021

I agree with some of that but disagree on Lance, he was the best cheat in a peloton of cheats, but he was still the class of the field. He wasn't even the best responder to the regime in his own team (Tyler Hamilton was), but he still won. It's not a fair comparison. He was still a liar and a despicable person at times I can agree on that.

Lewis has had the title decided for him outside his control, it's shite but perhaps we need to move on like you say. I'll always consider Max's title as a question mark which is all we can do

Teetonetal · December 2021

Haych said:

Whether Mercedes appeal or not, and if they do, whether they win or not, the damage is done.

Mercedes might get some redress, financially or otherwise but the reputation of the sport is now well dodgy, in my humble opinion, more so than it ever has been before - and it's had some pretty dodgy moments.

I think it would be wrong for the WDC to change because of legal action, as far as I care, that ship has sailed, Max is now world champion and that should stand, although it will always do so in the same way Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France wins always had a question mark over them (until Oprah).

Hopefully F1 will recover from this and hopefully it will be the catalyst for change at the top and in the FIA that's desperately needed, because they are out of touch with the sport and with the fans.

On the one hand, I wonder if this will make attracting new teams harder and whether some teams at the top will start to consider their investment.

I do wonder how mercedes' board must feel, to see a championship decided by a very questionable rule override...

On the other hand, this has put F1 front and center in world media. It sets up the next season very well with a narrative and of course a lot of people do think mercedes are sore losers.

I am not sure any one will care about the asterisk even by next season. Max himself did not cheat and there is no suspicion of personal cheating in the way Armstrong did. It's just a shit way to win.

Haych · December 2021

OK, to clarify, Armstrong did cheat - I wasn't drawing comparison and suggesting Max was a cheat, maybe it was a bad analogy.

But there was always a question mark over his wins, even on some official lists there was an asterisk against his name which required a footnote.

I think the same will go down in the history books for MV's first title, there will always be that asterisk and the footnote, not that he cheated, but that circumstances surrounding the win were not normal.

S56035 · December 2021

.

brooom · December 2021

stickyfiddle said:

Cols said:

From what I could see, Verstappen went for his usual “Out of the way, Max coming through” overtake, running straight on to the limit of the track and giving the other driver the choice of an accident or getting out of the way. Hamilton - once again - ran off track to avoid getting torpedoed by Max.

This

TimmyO said:

The commentators, in the heat of the moment, were wrong. The corner includes the braking zone - the gap WAS handed back to what it was at the start of the braking zone

And this.

Max was only ahead because he braked so late there was no way of getting around the corner without pushing the other guy off. In other incidents we've often seen drivers in similar positions get penalised for it, never mind penalising the one getting squeezed out. Had Max braked at an appropriate early point to get around the corner while leaving room he wouldn't have been ahead, and at the beginning of this season that was the rule ("All the time you have to leave a space", from Alonso about Rosberg iirc). This year they've let Max not leave a space when fighting Hamilton, until Brazil where they didn't even require him to stay on the track himself.

The FIA has consistently moved the goalposts for Max ahead of everyone because it's exciting to watch, but it's getting really tiring for the rest of us.

You only have to look at Max's move on Sainz after the pitstops to see that Max knows how to do it. Sainz wasn't even trying and he still left him room.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-verstappen-picks-off-sainz-at-turn-6.1718949813873911804.html

A lot of Brundle's commentary this week felt like he was making an effort to be harsher on Lewis having read comments that he's biased towards the Brits, tbh. He was basically the only one in the entire Sky team defending Masi at the end as well.

also isn't the overtaking car supposed to leave a car's width within the track limits. MV literally parked the car in the middle of the corner, zero space left, that's not driving or racing, that's going in a straight line... if he wants to be a world class driver, perhaps drawing some inspiration from how Sergio Perez did the defending is in order.

welshboyo · December 2021

Genuine Question here:

What are Mercedes actually shouting about as they have still won the Constructor Championship though? Which in turn generates a shitload of cash into Mercedes..

The Driver World Championship is Lewis's bag (yes, OK he is in a Merc and I get that) and he has apparently asked MB to stop pushing, I can see MB's driver support and all that but does Lewis vs Max actually winning the Championship actually generate extra income into Merc as a constructor?

What would have happened if another driver had won that race - MB would still have won the Constructors title and MV woudl have been champion on race wins - would they still have moaned.

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Boromedic · December 2021

It's about the fairness of the victory, if the roles were reversed and Lewis was given the green light to win over Max, I'd be equally annoyed even though Max is a cock and I don't like him at all.

The stewards/race director made a call that ensured Max would be champion, that's the part that is bothering the sports fans. We have discussed this above, and thats the general consensus. It's not about Max Vs Lewis it's about the FIA and the race director effectively deciding who wins.

Simonh · December 2021

Boromedic said:

It's about the fairness of the victory, if the roles were reversed and Lewis was given the green light to win over Max, I'd be equally annoyed even though Max is a cock and I don't like him at all.

The stewards/race director made a call that ensured Max would be champion, that's the part that is bothering the sports fans. We have discussed this above, and thats the general consensus. It's not about Max Vs Lewis it's about the FIA and the race director effectively deciding who wins.

Very much this, but in addition to that it is a culmination of a year of very poor decisions made by masi in the name of the "show" and while I do agree the show needs to be improved if F1 is to have a future it is not Masi's job to engineer that show.

gavin_axecaster · December 2021

By only allowing the lapped cars between LH and MV to unlap themselves Masi gave Max 2 advantages - he didn't have to overtake anyone to get to LH and he didn't have to defend his position from behind as he had lapped cars blocking 3rd place Sainz behind him. Even if LH had new tyres, that alone would have been a big advantage.

Masi really cannot defend his action here under his remit as Race Director. He made decisions that had no precedent, directly in opposition to the rules, to "go racing" That's not his job. His job is to ensure the safety of drivers/marshals and see the rules are followed and enforced.

Fretwired · December 2021

welshboyo said:

Genuine Question here:

What are Mercedes actually shouting about ..

The way the rules were bent/interpretted. Mercedes based their decisions on their interpretation of the rules and experience of what has happened in the past. This year there have been some inconsistent decisions in which it could be argued the rules were not followed to the letter to allow racing to continue. F1 is an expensive rules-based sport. If Masi is going to make up or bend the rules on a whim it makes it hard for each team's strategists to plan/anticipate what might happen for any given scenario. It also forces Horner and Wolff to lobby Masi as we have seen all season.

For example, before the race, Masi said there wouldn't be a red flag were a crash to happen on the very corner Latifi crashed on. Why did he do this pre-race? In allowing Max and Lewis the chance to fight he ignored Carlos in P3. He was denied a chance to fight Max for P2.

I doubt the FIA will change the result - Mercedes may win a moral victory and a tightening of the rules for next year to avoid this happening again.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

Yeah absolutely. The general guidance of "don't push anyone off the track" when attacking or defending isn't exactly complicated...

Anyway, I agree that the WDC shouldn't be given to Lewis. It's far too late for that and I don't think he wants this one now.

What is good is the Jean Todt is stepping down so the new guy coming in (identity tbc later this week) has a great opportunity to bring in sensible changes quickly while distancing himself from this shitshow because it wasn't under his leadership and while they technically didn't breach the regs (sort of, maybe...) it was certainly confusing and something they will take steps to avoid happening in future.

If it were me, I'd keep Masi in charge but insist that he gets a team with very clear lines or reporting and responsbility. During a any on-track session he should be leaning on their guidance 99%. I'm not clear on whether he already has a team but either way it's clear the current setup isn't quite fit for purpose.

What is so frustrating is they actually had time during the VSC (at least a minute - not just a few seconds) to make the decision whether to have a full SC or a red flag. Clearly Merc looked at this and decided to plump for track position because under a red flag they'd get new tyres anyway, and under a full SC pitting would cost them track position and be a heavy risk of finishing under the SC. Likewise RB realised they were guaranteed to be right behind Lewis on fresh softs however it played out.

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that. It would have still been harsh on Lewis but unquestionably also been equitable treatment of the drivers and a hell of a story for the last 5 lap sprint to the finish. The impression is that he just isn't as talented at this stuff as the top guys in the top teams, so he needs help.

Fretwired · December 2021

stickyfiddle said:

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that.

Apparently, Masi and the stewards agreed before the race even started that there wouldn't be a red flag.

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My head said brake, but my heart cried never.

My head said brake, but my heart cried never.