The F1 thread

goldtop

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan  - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

rlw

Why F1 cannot have slow zones like Le Mans is beyond me.  The incident at the end only required the other drivers to pass at 50kph keeping left through the zone and then race around the rest of the circuit.  Bringing out the pace car would then have been unnecessary.

And apropos the comment about Jean Todt's replacements, the favourite at the moment seems to be all in favour of the show and the money it generates so I'm not holding my breath.

VimFuego

Haych said:

Whether Mercedes appeal or not, and if they do, whether they win or not, the damage is done.

Mercedes might get some redress, financially or otherwise but the reputation of the sport is now well dodgy, in my humble opinion, more so than it ever has been before - and it's had some pretty dodgy moments.

I think it would be wrong for the WDC to change because of legal action, as far as I care, that ship has sailed, Max is now world champion and that should stand, although it will always do so in the same way Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France wins always had a question mark over them (until Oprah).

Hopefully F1 will recover from this and hopefully it will be the catalyst for change at the top and in the FIA that's desperately needed, because they are out of touch with the sport and with the fans.

seems to me, looking at it from the outside, is that the race was decided by the "lawyers", that must leave a lingering sense of even the most diehard that it wasn't fully deserved, it was a proxy win really, a hollow victory. If merc appeal and are successful, the yet again the "lawyers" will have decided who won the race, and the other set of diehards will also feel that it's a bit of a hollow victory.
One of the great things about sports are that they are not exact science; it's played (and refereed) by people, and people make mistakes. France V NZ in 07, Wayne Barnes missed an obvious forward pass from France that led to the try that beat N and resulted in their going home early. Scotland V Aus in 2015, the ref ruled an offside against Scot when the ball came of an Aus player, Aus kicked the penalty and went through to the next round. 
Obviously the manner in which Hamilton lost leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but the random element is that price we pay for the drama of sport.

melod

People blaming Mercedes on wrong strategy need to understand that choices are made based on how rules are applied/understood. You can’t make a strategic choice based on a scenario that has never existed.

The scenarios they had to deal with was 

a) All Lapped cars need to unlap
b)Lapped cars won’t unlap 

Based on those two, staying out was the right choice because under (a) the race would end and under (b) max doesn’t have enough time.

The scenario that occurred had no real precedent so you can’t really plan for it but even if you did, it’s the only scenario that either options give max the win (stay out on old tyres or lose track position and have one lap to fight a car on similar tyres).

The only mistake Mercedes did was not to cover max on the second tyre change, although I am not that sure that would have worked either when someone behind you has softer and fresh rubber.

stickyfiddle

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that.

Apparently, Masi and the stewards agreed before the race even started that there wouldn't be a red flag.

Which is utterly insane if true. If anything they'd have been better to agree anything in the last 10 laps would be a red flag! But I guess this was at least partly a knee-jerk reaction to having so many in KSA

welshboyo

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing  - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

melod

And of course, I wouldn’t like the result to be overturned.

I also would like to see how Max’s approach of “pass or crash” works when he is the one trying to retain the championship.

I am happy for Newey though. He looks like a decent person and looked a bit frail.

stickyfiddle

@welshboyo It's money, of course! Mercedes have utterly dominated the hybrid era of F1 - 7 WDCs and 8 WCCs on the bounce since 2014. And their car business (and particularly the sporty AMG stuff) is in a much better place than it was a decade ago. It's not like they're suddenly going to take LH off all their marketing, but it does open the door for people to say "you got beaten by a twat driving a fizzy drinks can", which takes the shine off somewhat! 

I can't remember the numbers but a few years back they stated the investment (which has largely paid for itself now via prize money and sponsorship) was worth something equivalent to billions in goodwill and marketing spend elsewhere.

welshboyo

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan  - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

@stickyfiddle I know, its all about the money and the "let them race" bollocks they have rolled out is just pure bullshit, it was the case 20 or 30 years ago but now its all about Social Media and Advertising....

stickyfiddle

You seem to have misspelled "George Russell" a bit there!! 

goldtop

welshboyo said:

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan  - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

Still don't understand. You said Bottas is more exciting than Hamilton. Please explain how?

And as good as Perez was on Sunday (and he was excellent), he still couldn't hold off the 'unexciting' Hamilton. Even when Perez had nothing to lose and Hamilton had everything to lose.

I suspect that - like quite a few F1 followers - you don't like Hamilton. That's fine, but it'd be more honest to just say that. Because when you say he's not 'exciting' after the F1 racing he's done for 14 years, it looks a bit ... daft.

Hamilton was exciting from the day he turned up. He reminded me of someone else who arrived and made everyone sit up and take notice: Valentino Rossi in the 500cc GPs. Both are cut from the same cloth.

Fretwired

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing  - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

To force the FIA to act so Masi and co are at least consistent next year. I don't think Toto thinks the FIA will change the result. F1 has a new poster boy as a winner which is what it wanted all along and is why IMHO Masi acted the way he did.

gavin_axecaster

I don't think the FIA necessarily "wanted" MV to win. They want drama to get bums on seats/PPV.

If LH had somehow been able to hold MV off and had won, the FIA would probably still been happy. They could still market next season off the drama/controversy of this one, regardless of the actual result.

welshboyo

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan  - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

Still don't understand. You said Bottas is more exciting than Hamilton. Please explain how?

And as good as Perez was on Sunday (and he was excellent), he still couldn't hold off the 'unexciting' Hamilton. Even when Perez had nothing to lose and Hamilton had everything to lose.

I suspect that - like quite a few F1 followers - you don't like Hamilton. That's fine, but it'd be more honest to just say that. Because when you say he's not 'exciting' after the F1 racing he's done for 14 years, it looks a bit ... daft.

Hamilton was exciting from the day he turned up. He reminded me of someone else who arrived and made everyone sit up and take notice: Valentino Rossi in the 500cc GPs. Both are cut from the same cloth.

Read ALL my responses before digging in - I have already said I am no Max or Lewis fan - in fact you have re-quoted that exact statement back at me..so not sure where you are getting lost there??

I have also NOT said Bottas - ok, I'll admit I said "teams" but at no point did I say Bottas - Perez has been good all season though and stand by my views - his tyre management, his grit, hard work and determination all 1st class stuff IMO - we need more like him

Sorry to say I've never found Hamilton exciting and I just can't take to him, yes, he is a very good driver and at some points he has amazed me at how he claws his way back through from way down the pack, perhaps him being such a good driver and being way out in front for most of the time is the bit that doesn't excite or interest me - does that make me less of a fan of F1? no...so put your claws away....you could say that supporting the (should have been) clear winner is a safe bet too - much like the old Man U joke..

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

welshboyo

Fretwired said:

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing  - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

To force the FIA to act so Masi and co are at least consistent next year. I don't think Toto thinks the FIA will change the result. F1 has a new poster boy as a winner which is what it wanted all along and is why IMHO Masi acted the way he did.

Shouldn't be like that...the FIA are obviously blind like you say and probably like the Red Bull moniker reaching a wider, younger audience..still at least Netflix will get decent viewing figures too...ooh, did I just say that out loud....was that obvious too 

I think next season will be very very interesting....

DesVegas

Go Kimi!!

Boromedic

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing  - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

Disagree here tbh, Red Bull have been the aggressors and the major purveyor of sniping, bad blood, and generally dragging the standards down to the street. Mercedes have to risen and changed to the standard that Red Bull have lowered themselves too. Max's on track behaviour and Red Bulls general tactics and PR have been in the gutter since the start of the year, you're just equating Mercedes behaviour as they haven't until recently responded in kind so it's fresher in the memory.

With regards Sergio, he's good but theres a reason he's kicked around in the midfield in all previous seasons, he's also been beaten on occasion by some average drivers even though he's been in the fastest car all season on average. Le Clerc, Sainz, Russell and Ocon have been way better than him, as has Lando who is my fave driver outside the top teams. 

TimmyO

The most impactful thing Perez did this season was drive deliberately slowly for a few laps 

poopot

welshboyo said:

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

If Perez, sainz et al were better drivers they would be battling up front with the usual “dirge”.

stickyfiddle

poopot said:

welshboyo said:

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

If Perez, sainz et al were better drivers they would be battling up front with the usual “dirge”.

Sainz has been consistently at the front of the midfield in a car that isn't capable of more. Perez has been consistently at the front of the midfield in the car that won the title...