The F1 thread

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

That may be good for F1. It could simply say this is edge of the pants racing and become the last bastion of the big V8 engine with lots of noise and spectacle with independent teams. F1 could supply an engine via a company like Cosworth and we could have a great sport with fast close racing and more teams as the budgets are reduced. With everything else being electric F1 would be unique. Not relevant to modern car design but great entertainment.

And that is the key thing: entertainment. Let other areas help modern car design. GT3, IMSA, WEC, let them be the areas for development of new ideas. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

That twin status (as team and engine manufacturer) to my mind coupled with the Long Standing Team cash given to Ferrari is all part of the reason why F1 sucks. Yes it's been better this season, yes we've had five different winners this season (the largest mix for some years) but it's still been mostly tedious. 

Like the political thread about government overspending and how nobody is prepared to bite the bullet over something like foreign aid, so someone needs to do the same with Ferrari and Mercedes. If it means a year of limited engines for teams, so be it. For years, all these changes in F1 have done absolutely shit all to make F1 better at the core. For every set of big wheels, for every new compound, for every engine change, we've seen the overall quality go down. It's not entertaining. The best open-wheel series this year has been GP2 by a long way and it has been for some time. 

Now if Liberty did go down the route with a customer engine and standard chassis, then you wonder where that would leave the like of McLaren who really are about chassis design. Would that leave teams concentrating on aerodynamics? Generally more advanced aero in recent years has meant less passing and it being very hard to follow another car. Also, having stock chassis etc is good for costs but put this against notions of more and more races per season. 

F1 wants to be the most technologically advanced but that doesn't make for the best racing. Personally I'd love a less technologically advanced F1. Something raw and brutal would sell to a new audience, perhaps in a similar way to how MMA and UFC have increased in stature and audience, a new no bullshit conflict based sport that doesn't have the theatrical wank of big card boxing. Fuck it, put up back in V8s with manual shifters, as little electronics as possible, and watch the fun. 

In my scenario teams like McLaren would be free to develop their own chassis. Standard bits would allow teams to cost-effectively enter F1 and find their feet. Haas are using a lot of Ferrari tech - basically they have an old Ferrari they have worked on and improved - but Gene Haas has a long term plan for a US made car and engine. Haas have been able to enter on a budget, find their feet, go racing and get sponsors.

chillidoggy

I’d love to see a return to the days when the likes of Hesketh and Lotus could pitch up and duke it out with the big boys. Maybe that needs a different formula, and not F1, though.

Garthy

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

Fretwired

Garthy said:

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

And where would they race? And how would they get TV deals? It's not easy to setup your own championship and besides F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing.

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

And where would they race? And how would they get TV deals? It's not easy to setup your own championship and besides F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing.

Lol. FOM own the commercial rights to F1, nothing more. If the teams want to race in WEC or do their own thing they can. It’s in essence the same relationship as an estate agent and a home owner. 

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

And where would they race? And how would they get TV deals? It's not easy to setup your own championship and besides F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing.

Lol. FOM own the commercial rights to F1, nothing more. If the teams want to race in WEC or do their own thing they can. It’s in essence the same relationship as an estate agent and a home owner. 

They don't own the name or rights to F1 though ... if it was easy to set up a championship it would have been done. Teams have looked at doing it in the past but baulked at the cost - Bernie knew he had them by the balls. Won't ever happen.

Garthy

Grand Prix is not and cannot be trade marked. 

Garthy

Nor did the cost put the teams off last time around. They weren't happy with their share of the commercial income and threatened to walk, Bernie just increased the fee he paid Ferrari and did a deal with Red Bull and the whole breakaway collapsed there and then. FOM have very few day to day overheads, their biggest expense is video production which is sold on many times over. The BBC were spending more than FOM were on production between 2009-2011 then Sky blew both out of the paddock with three teams of tv crews with 100 staff each.

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

The teams have not signed exclusivity deals with FOM, FOM do not own the teams and the teams can race in any series they want to. I just can't see how you could think otherwise.

siremoon

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

And where would they race? And how would they get TV deals? It's not easy to setup your own championship and besides F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing.

Lol. FOM own the commercial rights to F1, nothing more. If the teams want to race in WEC or do their own thing they can. It’s in essence the same relationship as an estate agent and a home owner. 

They don't own the name or rights to F1 though ... if it was easy to set up a championship it would have been done. Teams have looked at doing it in the past but baulked at the cost - Bernie knew he had them by the balls. Won't ever happen.

Didn't happen last time because Bernie did a divide and rule deal with Ferrari.  If Ferrari had been onside with the other teams it would have happened. 

chillidoggy

As far as I'm aware, the teams aren't obliged to compete in F1, they choose to enter, so it's a bit odd saying they can't set up their own series. That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't organisations around that could do just that. Bernie had them all where he wanted them, he must have been like Saddam Hussein keeping the various factions from squabbling with each other, and I too wonder if the real reason is indeed the cost and complexity of doing so.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

If F1 had a spec chassis then the teams will form their own GP championship and carry on as before, without giving billions to Liberty Media first. 

And where would they race? And how would they get TV deals? It's not easy to setup your own championship and besides F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing.

Lol. FOM own the commercial rights to F1, nothing more. If the teams want to race in WEC or do their own thing they can. It’s in essence the same relationship as an estate agent and a home owner. 

FOM own the rights to the F1 name and brand. It would also cost a small fortune to set up a new series and negotiate with all the tracks. I couldn't see the teams agreeing on how to share the money. It won't happen.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

I was answering your point about the 'F1 chassis' - if F1 contracted the likes of Cosworth to make a white box engines/chassis I bet they'd own the rights. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes could go and do their own thing but the smaller teams wouldn't be able to if they used F1 licensed parts ... Ferrari and Mercedes wouldn't want to setup a new series.  And would the teams agree on things like prize money shares? Doubtful. It collapsed last time it was discussed.

chillidoggy

Given Liberty Media have just paid a shedload of cash for F1, I can’t see them killing the golden goose just yet by pissing off Ferrari and Merc too much.

Purely from a hypothetical view, a race series could be set up, but the costs depend on the “level”. By that I mean the likes of the lesser GP series, WEC, and the like as opposed to the huge costs of F1.

But whether the will is there between the teams remains to be seen. They all squabble, bitch and moan but that’s just business, and I guess it depends what each team feels it gets out of the F1 deal, be that PR, advertising, or (perhaps for the lower ranks), simply the desire to go racing at the top. 

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

Nor did the cost put the teams off last time around. They weren't happy with their share of the commercial income and threatened to walk, Bernie just increased the fee he paid Ferrari and did a deal with Red Bull and the whole breakaway collapsed there and then. FOM have very few day to day overheads, their biggest expense is video production which is sold on many times over. The BBC were spending more than FOM were on production between 2009-2011 then Sky blew both out of the paddock with three teams of tv crews with 100 staff each.

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

The teams have not signed exclusivity deals with FOM, FOM do not own the teams and the teams can race in any series they want to. I just can't see how you could think otherwise.

Sky's coverage of F1 is the same as it's coverage of cricket: more angles, more cameras, shitter presentation than when it was on terrestrial. 

thumpingrug

Heartfeltdawn said:

Garthy said:

Nor did the cost put the teams off last time around. They weren't happy with their share of the commercial income and threatened to walk, Bernie just increased the fee he paid Ferrari and did a deal with Red Bull and the whole breakaway collapsed there and then. FOM have very few day to day overheads, their biggest expense is video production which is sold on many times over. The BBC were spending more than FOM were on production between 2009-2011 then Sky blew both out of the paddock with three teams of tv crews with 100 staff each.

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

The teams have not signed exclusivity deals with FOM, FOM do not own the teams and the teams can race in any series they want to. I just can't see how you could think otherwise.

Sky's coverage of F1 is the same as it's coverage of cricket: more angles, more cameras, shitter presentation than when it was on terrestrial. 

Thats harsh, the Sky coverage of F1 has been very good, very detailed and in-depth and, in my opinion, far superior to what the BBC used to provide.  As a huge added bonus it doesn't include Eddie Jordan.

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

I was answering your point about the 'F1 chassis' - if F1 contracted the likes of Cosworth to make a white box engines/chassis I bet they'd own the rights. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes could go and do their own thing but the smaller teams wouldn't be able to if they used F1 licensed parts ... Ferrari and Mercedes wouldn't want to setup a new series.  And would the teams agree on things like prize money shares? Doubtful. It collapsed last time it was discussed.

Why would the likes Sauber, Force India & Williams need to use 'F1 licensed' parts when they make their own now, and have done for the entirety of their existence, save for a for years in the 70s when Frank used Wolf chassis?

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

I was answering your point about the 'F1 chassis' - if F1 contracted the likes of Cosworth to make a white box engines/chassis I bet they'd own the rights. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes could go and do their own thing but the smaller teams wouldn't be able to if they used F1 licensed parts ... Ferrari and Mercedes wouldn't want to setup a new series.  And would the teams agree on things like prize money shares? Doubtful. It collapsed last time it was discussed.

Why would the likes Sauber, Force India & Williams need to use 'F1 licensed' parts when they make their own now, and have done for the entirety of their existence, save for a for years in the 70s when Frank used Wolf chassis?

Are you being obtuse? Brawn is interested in looking at this to help new teams enter F1 by lowering the cost of entry. The Haas team effectively had this via an old Ferrari car and engine/gearbox. There are also discussions about whether there could be standardised items that all the teams use that could reduce the cost of F1. A white box engine/gearbox and chassis are obvious items for some teams lower down the grid. Look how many teams have bailed out of F1 due to the high cost of entry and their inability to be competitive.

As Brawn says - do nothing and you will basically see Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull winning with maybe McLaren on the fringes. If some of the teams could buy standard bits they would need to spend millions on design teams and wind tunnels. It was feared Sauber might be the next casualty until Alfa Romeo/Ferrari came along. Sauber were broke or didn't you notice. Force India aren't rich either.

Williams may build their own car but it's basically shit as they don't have enough money for proper wind tunnel testing. That's why they can't attract a top driver.

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Your point "F1 would own the engine and chassis so teams couldn't just bugger off and do their own thing. "

I was answering your point about the 'F1 chassis' - if F1 contracted the likes of Cosworth to make a white box engines/chassis I bet they'd own the rights. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes could go and do their own thing but the smaller teams wouldn't be able to if they used F1 licensed parts ... Ferrari and Mercedes wouldn't want to setup a new series.  And would the teams agree on things like prize money shares? Doubtful. It collapsed last time it was discussed.

Why would the likes Sauber, Force India & Williams need to use 'F1 licensed' parts when they make their own now, and have done for the entirety of their existence, save for a for years in the 70s when Frank used Wolf chassis?

Are you being obtuse? Brawn is interested in looking at this to help new teams enter F1 by lowering the cost of entry. The Haas team effectively had this via an old Ferrari car and engine/gearbox. There are also discussions about whether there could be standardised items that all the teams use that could reduce the cost of F1. A white box engine/gearbox and chassis are obvious items for some teams lower down the grid. Look how many teams have bailed out of F1 due to the high cost of entry and their inability to be competitive.

As Brawn says - do nothing and you will basically see Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull winning with maybe McLaren on the fringes. If some of the teams could buy standard bits they would need to spend millions on design teams and wind tunnels. It was feared Sauber might be the next casualty until Alfa Romeo/Ferrari came along. Sauber were broke or didn't you notice. Force India aren't rich either.

Williams may build their own car but it's basically shit as they don't have enough money for proper wind tunnel testing. That's why they can't attract a top driver.

You're using fictitious teams as examples that only exist in your head but it's me who is obtuse? It was a simple statement, the teams would walk if F1 became a spec chassis & engine series- it could not be clearer that statement was about the existing teams currently competing.

Reducing cost has been going on since the 1950s, its nothing new. If a team has $50m, it'll spend $50m. If it has $300m, it will spend $300m. Teams in F1 come and go, with a few exceptions. The average life span of an F1 team under the same ownership is 3 seasons. The saying "to make a small fortune in motor racing start with a large one" exists for a reason.

Your comment about Williams - well where to start. They've made a fundamental error with their chassis so Paddy Lowe wrote the season off as they discovered this far too late to consider a B-spec car. Their wind tunnel is one of the best in the business and they really did bet the house on it when it was built because as soon as it was completed RBR lobbied really bloody hard to cut wind tunnel time by an enormous amount, having just acquired great CFD technology which Williams couldn't afford having just spent every spare penny on a wind tunnel that could barely be used due to the new rules limiting run time. CFD is also limited for WCC entrants, but RBR use Red Bull Technologies to get around this which is what inspired Ferrari to help Hass as much as they did in 2015.

chillidoggy

My son tells me that the documentary "Williams" on Netflix is well worth watching.