The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

chillidoggy said:

Kubica is testing for Williams at Abu Dhabi tomorrow morning, according to the BBC.

Yup. The team said it's to confirm his fitness with regard to the new cars, which is understandable. What worries me is that this is also the point where Renault backed out. Time will tell.

Boromedic

I'm still sticking with the idea that whilst he is very brave and a former great driver, he just won't cope well with a long, hard race full of attrition. They may well take him on for the PR and potential but think he will be found wanting in races next season. Fair play and good luck to him of course, I hope he proves me wrong but we shall see.

stickyfiddle

Boromedic said:

I'm still sticking with the idea that whilst he is very brave and a former great driver, he just won't cope well with a long, hard race full of attrition. They may well take him on for the PR and potential but think he will be found wanting in races next season. Fair play and good luck to him of course, I hope he proves me wrong but we shall see.

So.. probably still better than Stroll

Boromedic

Hahaha, yeah probably although Stroll comes with a suitcase of cash!

TimmyO

Wasn't one of the reasons for going away from a reliance on ground effect a safety thing? You lose ground effect (kerb/bump/suspension failure) and all the downforce lets go at once

TimmyO

limiting complexity/elements in the aero package could keep the downforce up where it is less dangerous to produce, and decrease turbulence (maybe) 

stickyfiddle

TimmyO said:

Wasn't one of the reasons for going away from a reliance on ground effect a safety thing? You lose ground effect (kerb/bump/suspension failure) and all the downforce lets go at once

Yeah. I assume they'd mandate only a certain "amount" of ground effect to be permitted, with wings retained to ensure some downforce remains when you're going over bumps & kerbs. 

I wonder if just having a minimum ride height all round would be enough; allowing hefty sculpting of the floor but not that near-seal to the ground that the original ground effect cars used to run. I would assume that would make the loss of grip much less sudden in case of bumps. 

I wonder if there's anything good on f1technical about it - those guys know their shit when it comes to aero stuff.

stickyfiddle

Apparently the new Indycar has a chunky bit of GE with minimal wings for 2018

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a33074/formula-1s-huge-new-downforce-is-a-problem-and-indycar-has-the-solution/

It's not quite where F1 needs to go, but it's a smart looking race car

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

TimmyO said:

Wasn't one of the reasons for going away from a reliance on ground effect a safety thing? You lose ground effect (kerb/bump/suspension failure) and all the downforce lets go at once

Yeah. I assume they'd mandate only a certain "amount" of ground effect to be permitted, with wings retained to ensure some downforce remains when you're going over bumps & kerbs. 

Exactly. If you look at some of the concept cars they still have wings. In his interview Brawn wants changes to ensure cars can follow each other and overtake. Hamilton got to within 1 second of Bottas but was unable to mount a serious challenge. Fans want to see cars flat out all race not in tyre/fuel saving mode and not stuck behind a car due to the hot air/turbulence being generated by the car in front.

chillidoggy

 Boromedic said:

Hahaha, yeah probably although Stroll comes with a suitcase of cash!

It'll be a bold move by Williams if they do sign Kubica up, but if they do I hope it's the right decision, for the right reasons, and with an expectation he's not going to bail out halfway through a GP cos his wrist has gone a bit limp. I just cannot conceive they wouldn't have considered that might happen, hence why I'm banging on that I think there's a good chance of him getting the drive.

* "Tell us Sir Frank, what was it that persuaded you to select son of billionaire Lawrence Stroll as a driver?"

*Apologies to Mrs. Merton. 

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

TimmyO said:

Wasn't one of the reasons for going away from a reliance on ground effect a safety thing? You lose ground effect (kerb/bump/suspension failure) and all the downforce lets go at once

Yeah. I assume they'd mandate only a certain "amount" of ground effect to be permitted, with wings retained to ensure some downforce remains when you're going over bumps & kerbs. 

Exactly. If you look at some of the concept cars they still have wings. In his interview Brawn wants changes to ensure cars can follow each other and overtake. Hamilton got to within 1 second of Bottas but was unable to mount a serious challenge. Fans want to see cars flat out all race not in tyre/fuel saving mode and not stuck behind a car due to the hot air/turbulence being generated by the car in front.

isn't that more of a Mercedes thing this year though - their car seemed to suffer far more than most when following (and rumours of a significant geometry change next year as part of addressing that) 

Fretwired

TimmyO said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

TimmyO said:

Wasn't one of the reasons for going away from a reliance on ground effect a safety thing? You lose ground effect (kerb/bump/suspension failure) and all the downforce lets go at once

Yeah. I assume they'd mandate only a certain "amount" of ground effect to be permitted, with wings retained to ensure some downforce remains when you're going over bumps & kerbs. 

Exactly. If you look at some of the concept cars they still have wings. In his interview Brawn wants changes to ensure cars can follow each other and overtake. Hamilton got to within 1 second of Bottas but was unable to mount a serious challenge. Fans want to see cars flat out all race not in tyre/fuel saving mode and not stuck behind a car due to the hot air/turbulence being generated by the car in front.

isn't that more of a Mercedes thing this year though - their car seemed to suffer far more than most when following (and rumours of a significant geometry change next year as part of addressing that) 

The Merc is bad but it affects all the top teams when they race each other. Vettel has been in the same position and you see it in the midfield with similar spec cars. Brawn see's it as one of the biggest problems in F1 as it prevents wheel to wheel racing at the front.

Fretwired

Aston Martin to join F1 if engine rules change .. could work with Cosworth to develop the engine and would supply Red Bull.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42148636

stickyfiddle

How about this for getting drivers to push - mandate they start with full tanks. We have a 100kg limit now, right? But most teams will underfuel to 94 or 95 because they assume there will be a quiet period where they can save, and that ±5kg saving will make them quicker the rest of the time. How about just mandate that they have to start with 100kg, or preferably 110kg, so they're forced to push the bloody things to make sure their tanks are as light as possible towards the end. 

That wouldn't help cars overtake but might at least stop this ridiculous fuel saving endurance crap.

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

How about this for getting drivers to push - mandate they start with full tanks. We have a 100kg limit now, right? But most teams will underfuel to 94 or 95 because they assume there will be a quiet period where they can save, and that ±5kg saving will make them quicker the rest of the time. How about just mandate that they have to start with 100kg, or preferably 110kg, so they're forced to push the bloody things to make sure their tanks are as light as possible towards the end. 

That wouldn't help cars overtake but might at least stop this ridiculous fuel saving endurance crap.

Bring refuelling back. It was fun and something that teams could cock-up.

Garthy

stickyfiddle said:

How about this for getting drivers to push - mandate they start with full tanks. We have a 100kg limit now, right? But most teams will underfuel to 94 or 95 because they assume there will be a quiet period where they can save, and that ±5kg saving will make them quicker the rest of the time. How about just mandate that they have to start with 100kg, or preferably 110kg, so they're forced to push the bloody things to make sure their tanks are as light as possible towards the end. 

That wouldn't help cars overtake but might at least stop this ridiculous fuel saving endurance crap.

They’ll just enrich the mix and burn the extra 20kg of fuel they don’t need. You’ll end up with the exact same result but as  a sport have wasted 8 tons of fuel over a season. 

chillidoggy

Kubica did 100 laps at Abu Dhabi, ended up 1.7 seconds (unofficial) slower than Stroll. More tyre testing involving him tomorrow.

stickyfiddle

chillidoggy said:

Kubica did 100 laps at Abu Dhabi, ended up 1.7 seconds (unofficial) slower than Stroll. More tyre testing involving him tomorrow.

Without knowing which tyres that’s not much of a benchmark. I can see them putting Kubica on whatever rubber Massacre was using over the weekend (and with the same setup, fuel etc) so they can properly judge him against someone credible. Then put  Lance on the quickest rubber to make his dad feel like his money is being well spent....

Boromedic

Thats a bigger gap than the Hungaroring tests, obviously though as stickyfiddle mentioned without knowing other details like fuel and tyres it makes comparison difficult. Its a faster circuit though so such a gap could be a worry.... Based on quali time if its comparable he would have qualified behind the Saubers.

chillidoggy

Indeed.

Still more testing today, and Sirotkin will be in the car, too.