The F1 thread

rlw

stickyfiddle said:

High level summary of the new engine regs is out:

• 1.6 Litre, V6 Turbo Hybrid
• 3000rpm higher engine running speed range to improve the sound
• Prescriptive internal design parameters to restrict development costs and discourage extreme designs and running conditions
• Removal of the MGUH
• More powerful MGUK with focus on manual driver deployment in race together with option to save up energy over several laps to give a driver controlled tactical element to racing
• Single turbo with dimensional constraints and weight limits
• Standard energy store and control electronics
• High Level of external prescriptive design to give ‘Plug-And-Play’ engine/chassis/transmission swap capability
• Intention to investigate tighter fuel regulations and limits on number of fuels used

Higher reves is good for sound, and losing the MGU-H is good for getting new companies coming in, as that's the bit Honda & Renault fucked up. 

Of course without changing the fuel flow limits noone will actually use that higher rev limit, so hopefully they'll just tell them "Here's 100kg fuel; use it however you want". 

And of course Mercedes & Renault are up in arms over it, because Merc don't want to lose their advantage, and Renault know they can't develop new engines for shit, so don't want to have to just as they're getting close with the current formula. 

Interesting times...

What is the point for the manufacturers?   Virtually fixed internal design, fixed design turbo and (probably) position, virtually fixed external design.  You might as well have a spec engine from Cosworth and save millions.

What a fucking waste of time and effort.  Next to no room for any clever or innovative engine design and I really can't see the point.  Better to keep the same engines, lose the MGUH, up the revs and  then say you can only have a single plane front and rear wing, thus saving millions again. And what about a fuel limit?  95 kilos to do the race would concentrate a few minds.

Look back all the way to Group C in 1982.  The car had to fit in a virtual - complex -  box and do x miles to the gallon to get to the finish.  Tyres were proscribed, as were many dimensions, but within the two simple parameters you could do what you liked.  That lead to so many innovations currently on road cars and also made for great racing.

F1 should, and must, get it's head out of it's own arse or it will just turn into noisier faster and more expensive F3.   For me, unless next season is better, my Sky subscription is coming to an end, and that from someone who went to their first Grand Prix in 1965.

sinbaadi

Racing in Formula 3 is always better than in F1!

I agree that they might be better making the move to a spec engine now if they want to limit things so much.  F1 identity crisis rears its head once again, I suppose.

Technical innovation or low costs and parity?  Can't have both.

Boromedic

chillidoggy said:

aord43 said:

chillidoggy said:

Whichever way it goes, it'll cost money, and the engine manufacturers will want to be able to use the tech elsewhere in road cars. I do like the idea of saving up energy for use later, though.

Isn't that just what hybrid road cars do now?  I admit I thought the F1 cars already did it.  What happens to recuperated energy now?

Might be the driver saving up more and more energy to release into the drivetrain when he needs it. Larger battery capacity, maybe? Maybe a number of overtake boosts but only after 'x' amount of laps? Where's @fretwired when you need him?

The teams deploy the ERS energy strategically throughout the lap now, the driver no longer uses it as a boost like the old KERS system used to be. The strategists select the locations for deployment and it's fixed through quali and the race. This article explains it well: 

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/52167-how-does-ers-deployment-work.html

The new idea is the old idea recycled but also expanded..... but like sinbaadi says above, you can have innovation, the glamour and be the pinnacle of motorsports, or you can have parity and low cost but you can't have both. Frets suggestion a few pages back was best, to fill time on Saturdays they should have a one make formula race with all the F1 grid, make it low spec aero, V10 full bore engines, manual gears, sticky tyres and away you go. People would love that, then you have 2 areas of interest, the pinnacle in the F1 race and the retro league for all the old fans who think the noise is a big issue. Win win!!!

chillidoggy

Whaaaat? It’s not triggered by the driver? Seriously?

Garthy

So they are going to be really bloody slow, a smidge louder and just as expensive. The Merc, Ferrari and Renault engines were starting to converge in performance, changing the engine now just means that Renault will stop developing their current engine, possibly Ferrari too. Only Merc and Honda can afford to continue to develop the current engines and spend a billion on new engines.

The rev increase is pointless, there isn't enough fuel to rev over 13k now despite the limit being 15k currently, its pandering to idiots.

Binning the MGU-H- if they wanted to save money they should have binned this in 2010, not after the money has been spent. Binning it now is like turning your 1959 LP into firewood to save money.

siremoon

Ahem:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41857101

Boromedic

The big teams and manufacturers are always going to want to pursue the latest cutting edge tech as its important to their brand. The teams will always win that argument whilst they are in the sport.

P.s. Where is @Fretwired ? Surely he wasn't scared off by the earlier craic? He usually has some wis on this topic, please say he hasn't flounced?!

aord43

siremoon said:

Ahem:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41857101

I thought I read that Ferrari have a veto over any rule changes anyway.

PC_Dave

siremoon said:

Ahem:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41857101

Crikey! That’s a strong stance to take this early on!

thumpingrug

siremoon said:

Ahem:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41857101

Isn't that what they say every time rule changes are mentioned.  Its their default cry boy stance.  Someone should just tell them to fuck off.

sweepy

I’d call their bluff, no Team is bigger than F1 and as soon as Ferrari get that through their kid glove moccasins the better 

sinbaadi

Actually Ferrari basically are bigger than F1, and all it would take is a few other manufacturers putting something together with some of the big name F1 stars to prove that point.   

What is F1?  It's nothing without the brands and the names.  As a brand itself it's not worth anything if it can't deliver those brands and names.  This isn't like telling Ronaldo that he isn't bigger than Real Madrid.

Do you really think F1 wouldn't be in serious crisis if Force India was the only remaining team from the current line up and the likes of Porsche who have been threatening to join actually decided that Ferrari have it right, and joined the new series?

Garthy

Ferrari have a point here. They've (and Merc) spent over a billion dollars on the current engines that they fought hard not to have in the first place and now the FIA want to bin the bits that cost so much in R&D. All four engine suppliers are livid, and all this to appease Aston Martin & VAG? For how many years have VW toyed with the idea of entering F1? If all four said to the FIA they will not make engines after 2021 then Liberty Media would be absolutely fucked.

siremoon

sweepy said:

I’d call their bluff, no Team is bigger than F1 and as soon as Ferrari get that through their kid glove moccasins the better 

Liberty Media are not that stupid.  A few years ago there was talk of a breakaway series and iirc most, if not all, of the teams signed up.  All except Ferrari that is.  Result is it didn't happen.  Every sport has its historic marquee names.  In F1 that is Ferrari.  They know it, Liberty media know it and the FIA know it.  Take away the considerable numbers who attend races in Ferrari regalia and an equivalent proportion of the already falling TV audience and what do Liberty Media have left for their substantial investment? 

You now have a situation where the three main car manufacturers and engine suppliers are saying no to the proposed new regulations.  Ergo those proposed regulations will not be implemented without changes to appease those three manufacturers.     

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

The biggest concern with any significant change to the regulations is that it creates a massive opportunity for one or two teams to make a huge leap forward, and the others end up even further behind. Thus rule changes aimed at increasing the competitiveness end up doing the exact opposite. 

It's exactly what happened with the introduction of the current engines - Mercedes stole a march on the rest and have left everyone else trailing in their wake ever since. It's taken Ferrari and Renault 3 years to close the performance gap to any significant degree, but seemingly at the expense of reliability. 

Wise words from Paddy Lowe here, arguing that there are bigger issues in terms of the disparity of competition that engine performance (aside from Honda/McLaren of course): https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132823/f1-has-bigger-problems-than-engines--lowe ;

TimmyO

Boromedic said:

The big teams and manufacturers are always going to want to pursue the latest cutting edge tech as its important to their brand. The teams will always win that argument whilst they are in the sport.

P.s. Where is @Fretwired ? Surely he wasn't scared off by the earlier craic? He usually has some wis on this topic, please say he hasn't flounced?!

it's only a flounce if you announce it 

TimmyO

I wonder if Ferrari's investors will tell him to getTF over himself?

TimmyO

If Ferrari had wanted it to remain "Ferrari First Motorsport Formula" they should have done a better job of propping up their sock-puppet Ecclestone 

Boromedic

TimmyO said:

Boromedic said:

The big teams and manufacturers are always going to want to pursue the latest cutting edge tech as its important to their brand. The teams will always win that argument whilst they are in the sport.

P.s. Where is @Fretwired ? Surely he wasn't scared off by the earlier craic? He usually has some wis on this topic, please say he hasn't flounced?!

it's only a flounce if you announce it 

Aye, hopefully he's just taking a break

chillidoggy

Massa announces his retirement. Door is open for the rest of the gaggle now!