The F1 thread

rlw

menamestom said:

Ferrari are so frustrating this season.  They can turn an open goal into an own goal.  

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

That's how the works Lancia team were described at Le Man many years ago.  Maybe it's an Italian thing.

fretmeister

I'm happy to lose Monaco.

But Spa????

That's just stupid. It's a great track.

Cols

rlw said:

menamestom said:

Ferrari are so frustrating this season.  They can turn an open goal into an own goal.  

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

That's how the works Lancia team were described at Le Man many years ago.  Maybe it's an Italian thing.

I'm reminded of a quote from someone - might have been either John Barnard or Alain Prost, can't quite remember - remarking along the lines of:

"When I first visited Maranello and saw the facilities and resources they had, I couldn't understand how they weren't winning every race. 

And then when I saw the way they worked, I couldn't understand how they won anything."

fretmeister said:

I'm happy to lose Monaco.

But Spa????

That's just stupid. It's a great track.

A real kick in the teeth for the circuit if it comes to pass, coming on the heels of last year's travesty of a "race".  They've spent over £20 million upgrading the circuit, which may be financially catastrophic if the GP is yanked from under them.

stickyfiddle

Yeah, the car manufacturers want at least 1 more in the US and 2 more in Asia.

And Spa doesn't pay as much as those guys. I feel like the management haven't quite realised that if you have a calendar full of Yas Marinas people aren't going to want to watch. It's your classic short-termist "just focus on profit now" attitude.

Le sadface  

Boromedic

Spa is one of my faves and on the list for the next GP I actually visit (if it's still around!). I'd happily lose Monaco like 

stickyfiddle

Do we have a collective forum hierarchy of circuits? 

My thoughts...

S Tier
Spa
Silverstone
Montreal
Imola
Interlagos 

A Tier
Suzuka 
Monza
Austria? 
Bahrain
Zandvoort? I can't really remember it
Hungary

B Tier
Singapore
Jeddah
Spain
Baku (always nuts but I'm undecided if that's a good thing. At least it's different)
Melbourne

C Tier
Monaco (mostly for the spectacle of quali)

F Tier
Yas Marina
Paul Ricard (though even this year was good tbf)

I've probably missed some

Boromedic

stickyfiddle said:

Do we have a collective forum hierarchy of circuits? 

My thoughts...

S Tier
Spa
Silverstone
Montreal
Imola
Interlagos 

A Tier
Suzuka 
Monza
Austria? 
Bahrain
Zandvoort? I can't really remember it
Hungary

B Tier
Singapore
Jeddah
Spain
Baku (always nuts but I'm undecided if that's a good thing. At least it's different)
Melbourne

C Tier
Monaco (mostly for the spectacle of quali)

F Tier
Yas Marina
Paul Ricard (though even this year was good tbf)

I've probably missed some

I would agree with most of them Mike, Monaco is probably amazing when you're there but it's shite as a race. I'd put Monza in the S tier though. 

stickyfiddle

Boromedic said:

stickyfiddle said:

Do we have a collective forum hierarchy of circuits? 

My thoughts...
 

I would agree with most of them Mike, Monaco is probably amazing when you're there but it's shite as a race. I'd put Monza in the S tier though. 

Yeah, Monaco is really important, and the circuit is good, it's just that it's incompatible with modern cars. Look at F2 or FE and you get way better racing there. 

I did consider Monza and Suzuka as both S . I'd put those two plus all my S-es in the essential category that should never leave the calendar. If I was F1 Inc I'd be looking to buy a stake in each one so they stay protected.

menamestom

Monaco is not the greatest circuit but I’d like it to be retained for the history and spectacle of it.  It should be the one track that’s more than a race, but too many other street circuits have tioped the
balance a bit.

That list @stickyfiddle is pretty much spot on.

Spa is a great circuit and should be kept, thinking of going if it’s on next year actually.

I do wonder about safety after some horrendous crashes over the last few years at Eau Rouge, although I know it’s been tweaked recently.
And it is one if the best sections of track on the calendar.

Cols

Great question.  You missed Miami and Mexico (although I certainly wouldn't miss them if they were summarily dropped).  And in a difficult effort to try and have an equable split between tiers...

S Tier
Spa
Silverstone
Monaco 
Imola
Suzuka 

A Tier
Interlagos
Montreal
Monza
Spielberg 

B Tier
Hungaroring
Baku
Melbourne
Circuit Of The Americas

C Tier
Barcelona
Zandvoort
Bahrain
Singapore

F Tier
Yas Marina
Paul Ricard
Jeddah
Miami
Mexico

For me Monaco belongs in the top tier due to the history, atmosphere and unique challenge of the track.  There's absolutely no margin for error and mistakes are punished without mercy.  It's an insane place to try and race F1 cars, which is what makes it so special.

Monza was a difficult one to only place in the second tier.  Along with Silverstone and Monaco, it's the only circuit on the calendar which goes all the way back to the very first F1 championship in 1950.  It's a place where ghosts truly walk among the trees, and the flat out blast makes it - like Monaco - a rather unique challenge in the calendar.

For all that, it rarely produces a good race.  If I had to pick one out of the two Italian circuits, it would be Imola.  It's a better circuit for racing and is just as old school in terms of narrow layout and gravel traps to snare the unwary.

The bottom five were easy to pick.  All soulless venues, and for Miami in particular I had to have a good hard think to remember if we'd actually had a race there this year, or if it was making its debut for 2023.  Oh yeah - it was the one with the fake marina.  Can't recall much about the race though... 

pigface

No love for Hockenheim or the Nürburgring? Last German GP was in 2019.

Edit: I had forgotten the Eifel Grand Prix of 2020 which was a German GP in all but name.

Cols

pigface said:

No love for Hockenheim or the Nürburgring? Last German GP was in 2019.

Edit: I had forgotten the Eifel Grand Prix of 2020 which was a German GP in all but name.

I still miss the old Hockenheimring; it's not the same since they tore up the flat-out blast into the forests and made it stadium section only.

Boromedic

Me too, loved the old Hockenheim and there were some really great races there too. Nowhere near the same now, it's quite boring.

stickyfiddle

Looks like I forgot China Mexico and Miami existed. I don't have strong feeling about this, so I guess those are all B or C. 

I loved the old Hockenheim. The modern one is fine but hit & miss. I actually have a feeling with the new cars it could be quite good. I don't remember ever watching anything interesting happen at the south loop of the Nurburgring. 

And a minor anecdote about Monza. We stayed at a B&B in New England about 9 months ago, run by an Italian couple living in Vermont. I had a stream of one of the F1 sessions on my ipad over breakfast and the main guy spotted my screen and we got talking. He was a Ferrari fan, naturally, but recommended avoiding Monza as it's a rubbish place to watch racing outside of just seeing cars going really fast and not knowing what's actually happening in the race. I did stress I'd like to go there just for the atmosphere, but he reckoned Silverstone was way better  

boogieman

Monaco might have the history but it’s a boring bloody race to watch, on tv anyway.

ps, is Canada on your list? 

skullfunkerry

I know it only hosted one race during lockdown but I think I'd put Mugello in one of the higher tiers, too.

Nitefly

skullfunkerry said:

I know it only hosted one race during lockdown but I think I'd put Mugello in one of the higher tiers, too.

And that one in Portugal.

Boromedic

Yeah, Portimao was great

Cols

Mugello and Portimao were both excellent circuits, and I'd be glad to see F1 races at them again (although it would mean three races in Italy, which would be a bit greedy).  I hadn't included them as they're not in this year's calendar (same with the eminently forgettable Shanghai circuit).

Which does, I suppose, raise the question of tracks from years gone by which have been dropped.  I can think of the following:

Estoril (Portugal)
Magny Cours (France)
Kyalami (South Africa)
Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Sepang (Malaysia)
Istanbul (Turkey)
Indianapolis (USA)
Fuji (Japan)
Valencia (Spain)
Jerez (Spain)
Yeongam (South Korea)
Buddh (India)
Adelaide (Australia)

Where do these rank?  For me, the main standouts are Estoril, Adelaide and Istanbul.  Magny Cours never had a great reputation in its day, but against the current crop of circuits it actually looks pretty good.

sinbaadi

Monza is absolutely one of the top tier circuits in every sense.

If you have a list of "historic/iconic" circuits and another of "actually just a great layout for modern F1" then you have a very short list of tracks that top both of those.

For me:

Silverstone

Spa

Monza

Suzuka

Monaco is a jewel in the crown for F1, and if they stop racing there it would be a shame as they will never go to another street circuit that is anywhere remotely as exciting.