UKIP have an MP

VimFuego

wis P90

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

UKIP MP?

YAY!!!

And bollows to the lot of the PC types who bewail it

What's Ukips policy on education or health? Answer: unintelligible. And how come two party donors who have paid £4 million and £1 million respectively are now standing as prospective MPs in the next May's general election. Does Ukip offer the chance to stand for parliament to the highest bidder?

I'm aware that Farage and co are struggling with the thorny and troublesome issue of a designer handbag tax and expect more daft ideas from this half-baked party.

I suppose that those who voted for Hitler thought it was a good protest vote. Unfortunately they never got a chance to vote again until after the war.

Yeah, but look at the Germans now. They're the ones with all the cash!

Axe_meister

p90fool said:

UKIP are similar to the Tories in that trade on people's perceptions of what's going on rather than facts. I'm enjoying the fact that they're stealing Tory votes too, but it'll be short lived as the Tories move further to the right to win them back.

I think we're on the cusp of a very depressing and dangerous age in this country, it actually scares me how many seemingly rational people now hate Muslims, the unemployed, or basically everyone who's on a lower rung of the social ladder than themselves.

According to Oxfam there are five families in the UK who have more money than the lowest 20% of the population put together, and yet our collective loathing is constantly aimed at "scroungers" and the very poorly paid.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2vt6zax.jpg

However there is also myth that taxing the rich will fix all the problems, there just aren't enough very rich people to tax highly to make a true difference.

Philly_Q

Fretwired said: Clacton is a unique case. It's not about immigration - I think I read that the area is 97 per cent white British. Clacton suffers from acute deprivation and poor public services that the main parties have failed to address over the last 20 years. What the Tories and Labour are seeing is a backlash from white working class voters who feel marginalised from mainstream politics. The MP is a two-faced twat. He saw he was going to lose at the general election so jumped ship from the Tories to Ukip to protect his £70K salary and privileged position.


I agree, but I'd add that the people of Clacton have voted for the same bloke who's apparently done nothing to improve their situation in nine years representing them as a Tory.  Now he's the only MP representing his new party in Westminster so presumably he'll achieve even less.

Axe_meister

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

UKIP MP?

YAY!!!

And bollows to the lot of the PC types who bewail it

What's Ukips policy on education or health? Answer: unintelligible. And how come two party donors who have paid £4 million and £1 million respectively are now standing as prospective MPs in the next May's general election. Does Ukip offer the chance to stand for parliament to the highest bidder?

I'm aware that Farage and co are struggling with the thorny and troublesome issue of a designer handbag tax and expect more daft ideas from this half-baked party.

I suppose that those who voted for Hitler thought it was a good protest vote. Unfortunately they never got a chance to vote again until after the war.

Yeah, but look at the Germans now. They're the ones with all the cash!

As much as we have all hated the coalition, Germany has actually benefited from being pretty much in a permanent coalition, which moderates politics somewhat. Also the spend their money where it makes a difference, i.e. Education (they have now completely abolished tuition fees, and have one of the best apprenticeship schemes in the world )

chillidoggy

I believe (although I stand corrected), that they have an entirely different view of credit, and credit cards.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

UKIP MP?

YAY!!!

And bollows to the lot of the PC types who bewail it

What's Ukips policy on education or health? Answer: unintelligible. And how come two party donors who have paid £4 million and £1 million respectively are now standing as prospective MPs in the next May's general election. Does Ukip offer the chance to stand for parliament to the highest bidder?

I'm aware that Farage and co are struggling with the thorny and troublesome issue of a designer handbag tax and expect more daft ideas from this half-baked party.

I suppose that those who voted for Hitler thought it was a good protest vote. Unfortunately they never got a chance to vote again until after the war.

Yeah, but look at the Germans now. They're the ones with all the cash!

Not for much longer .. Germany's about to go bust which is good news for Cameron.

richardhomer

Drew_fx;375408" said:

richardhomer;375334" said:Watching this on the news this morning, it struck me forcibly that what used to be referred to as 'race relations' are moving dramatically in the wrong direction now.

As a child growing up in the 70s, racism was pretty common - regularly seen on TV (Love Thy Neighbour, Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning, et al) - and racist language was pretty common, particularly among my parents' generation.

By the time I'd reached adulthood, attitudes had moved spectacularly - no one (other than horrible BNP supporting thugs) used racist language - being a racist had become socially unacceptable.

Having made that massive journey in a fairly short period, Farage and his unpleasant colleagues are endeavouring to take us back - with no doubt a decent dose of homophobia thrown in for good measure. He's quoted this morning as having said 'stopping people diagnosed with HIV coming into the country would be a good start to controlling our borders'.

Please explain how that is either racist or homophobic. What? Only black gay people get HIV? It's not that I agree with what he said, it's that I disagree with the connections you're making.

I feel genuinely saddened by today's result....

Do you really? Or are you just trying to show us all what a swell guy you are?

Yes - I am genuinely saddened by it.

I'm not saying that Farage's quote in itself is either racist or homophobic - but I suspect he considers people who have HIV 'deserve it' and yes - I suspect he does view it as a 'gay' disease - all suppositions on my part. To be clear I am biased - I really don't like Farage. Whether with his blessing or not, the 'Brittain First' followers on Facebook seem to love him. Brittain First is funded by the man who used to fund the BNP.

Having complimented your band Drew - sincerely - in case you feel the need to ask, I thought we were getting on rather better!

I'm not sure why you think my opinion on this may be 'for effect'. There are plenty of topics I don't post about where I have no real opinion - I wouldn't have posted on this issue if I didn't feel strongly about it.

Fretwired

p90fool said:

UKIP are similar to the Tories in that trade on people's perceptions of what's going on rather than facts. I'm enjoying the fact that they're stealing Tory votes too, but it'll be short lived as the Tories move further to the right to win them back.

Cameron will move the Tories to the left not the right. He can then be rid of the troublesome EU hating right-wingers. The Lib Dem vote has collapsed and Miliband's moved to left. Cameron will hope to attract disaffected Lib Dem voters and Blairites from the Labour Party, but he can only do that so long as Ukip are seem as the looney right party. The Tories could win seats from Labour and an odd seat in Scotland is not out of the question.

That's why Cameron has announced ring-fenced funding for the NHS, increases in personal allowances and an increase in the minimum wage for low paid workers and so on. 

And Scotland may yet come to Cameron's aid. If Labour lose 20+ seats in Scotland to the SNP Cameron could cut a deal. Tax raising powers and oil money for Scotland in return for a pact that the SNP doesn't vote on English issues in Westminster and supports the Tories on major issues like the EU. There's no love loss between the SNP and Labour and the Lib Dems. The Tories don't threaten the SNP north of the border so Cameron won't mind giving Scotland extra powers in return for support. It's back to the 17th century .. :-)

Drew_TNBD

We get on fine Rich, you don't need to compliment my band for that to happen. I can separate political disagreements from courteousness and friendship

FWIW, I am not a UKIP supporter. But I really don't think Farage is that bad a person. He's just kind of a bumbling idiot, but fairly harmless. He's not done anything to hurt anyone, other than put across his point of view. There are plenty of other politicians who have done some real damage, and they seem to constantly get a free pass because they're not the flavour-of-the-month-superbaddy that everyone in this country looks for.

I'm so tired of having to point out people's biases, hypocritical viewpoints, and general lack of objectivity. Not specifically aimed at you, but it happens a lot... someone will say something and the first place my brain goes is "ohh.. but you haven't even thought to consider..." and in my own discombobulations, that comes out as something like "OH FOR FUCKSAKE! YOU IDIIIOOOOTTTTTTT...."

I can't help it. It's almost a disability

Very often people say things like "oh my god... he's so racist/misogynistic/homophobic etc.. etc.." not because they truly care, but because they want everyone else around them viewing the exchange to think that they're one of the good guys. It's a pretty insidious phenomenon, and I hate it.

So... I don't think Farrage is a bad guy. He's just a businessman who lacks polish and social niceties. I don't think there is anything racist about him to be honest.

p90fool

Axe_meister said:

However there is also myth that taxing the rich will fix all the problems, there just aren't enough very rich people to tax highly to make a true difference.

Of course, it's a delicate balancing act. There also does come a point where over-taxing the very wealthy just means they take their cash out and become citizens of somewhere else, they did it all through the 70s.

I'm more an advocate of a decent minimum wage, given that the overwhelming majority of benefit claimants ARE working, just for absolutely piss-poor wages.
It worked well in France in the 90s, but they scrapped it to appease the middle classes who resented it, and France's economy has never been the same since (for that and a variety of other reasons).

A living wage means that people who work can live instead of merely existing, they can run a family car, have a holiday, have hobbies, support local shops, pay their own rent and childcare, and generally contribute to the economy.
It'll never happen in this country though, most people can't stand the idea of their social inferiors doing ok, they'd rather pay their rent through taxes so they can bitch about them lol.

mike_l

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

Phil_aka_Pip

mike_l said:

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

I'd like this to be the effect, but I don't think the other parties "get it" enough to do so. They'll just "try to get their message across a bit better" meaning they'll bleat the same crap louder for longer. They won't change.

p90fool

mike_l said:

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

It's bad because they'll address the issues not by educating the white working class, but by pandering to them.

Phil_aka_Pip

p90fool said:

mike_l said:

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

It's bad because they'll address the issues not by educating the white working class, but by pandering to them.

Isn't that "democracy"? Otherwise you are asserting there is some absolute truth which the white working class do not subscribe to and need to be "educated" into. 

Fretwired

Phil_aka_Pip said:

p90fool said:

mike_l said:

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

It's bad because they'll address the issues not by educating the white working class, but by pandering to them.

Isn't that "democracy"? Otherwise you are asserting there is some absolute truth which the white working class do not subscribe to and need to be "educated" into. 

We only have a democracy in name. Look at the result of the Heywood and Middleton by-election:

Labour 11,633
Ukip 11,016
Tories 3,496
Lib Dems 1,457

Turnout: 36 per cent.

More people [15,969] voted against the Labour candidate than for him and approximately 49,070 people didn't bother voting.

richardhomer

Drew_fx;375477" said:

Very often people say things like "oh my god... he's so racist/misogynistic/homophobic etc.. etc.." not because they truly care, but because they want everyone else around them viewing the exchange to think that they're one of the good guys. It's a pretty insidious phenomenon, and I hate it.

I get that Drew. There's no question in my mind that political correctness has effectively rendered some debates 'off limits' - immigration clearly being one of them.

There we go - something else we agree on!

Drew_TNBD

richardhomer said:

Drew_fx;375477" said:

Very often people say things like "oh my god... he's so racist/misogynistic/homophobic etc.. etc.." not because they truly care, but because they want everyone else around them viewing the exchange to think that they're one of the good guys. It's a pretty insidious phenomenon, and I hate it.

I get that Drew. There's no question in my mind that political correctness has effectively rendered some debates 'off limits' - immigration clearly being one of them.

There we go - something else we agree on!

Y'see... we *can* play nicely!

Drew_TNBD

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

p90fool said:

mike_l said:

Why is UKIP having an MP bad?

Surely it should make the other parties address the issues as to why UKIP got an MP, not skirt around them.

It's bad because they'll address the issues not by educating the white working class, but by pandering to them.

Isn't that "democracy"? Otherwise you are asserting there is some absolute truth which the white working class do not subscribe to and need to be "educated" into. 

We only have a democracy in name. Look at the result of the Heywood and Middleton by-election:

Labour 11,633
Ukip 11,016
Tories 3,496
Lib Dems 1,457

Turnout: 36 per cent.

More people [15,969] voted against the Labour candidate than for him and approximately 49,070 people didn't bother voting.

Democracy does not gaurantee an equality of outcome.

axisus

Whilst I wouldn't vote for UKIP personally, and I wouldn't like them to get any kind of powerbase, I am more than happy for them to be a thorn in the side of whichever govt is presiding at the time. They are winning votes, rightly or wrongly, because they have seen some of the issues that the public care about. All the other parties just push their own agenda regardless of what us rank & file think or want.