UKIP have an MP

johnnyurq

Not sure that UKIP are racist per se but they certainly seem to attract a fair few that are demenstrably are.

More worrying is the whole variety of different hateful and pejorative views held by some prominent members and a load of supporters.

Like this for instance as well as the HIV stuff and other batshit crazy stuff some of them say.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/10/ukip-should-examine-its-own-record-over-disability-tirade

http://dpac.uk.net/2014/09/the-great-farago-the-ukip-sleight-of-hand/

But I think and hope that they will get no proper purchase beyond annoyance factor to the Tories in the man and Labour/Lib Dems to a lesser extent.

Think SDP and the like who were less contentious and more mainstream and thet never lasted long.

The fact they are adding or giving vent to the general feeling of our politics and politicians are shit is the only good thing about it all. That may be their legacy when the novelty wears off.

I cannot (may be wrong but hope I am right) see them becoming the 4th party as even the 3rd party have never done much until blunderinginto a coalition at the last GE.

For me the hopefully impending rebalance of powers around the UK (which I hope are fair for all) and the prospect of more coalition governments in the coming years resukts in a better way forward.

These days I am thinking that coalitions may be they way ahead seeing none of the usual suspects can seemingly make a good fist of it when in power even over multiple terms.

Sign of the times I guess.

Sambostar

So we should be actively encouraging illegal immigrants with HV and no skill set to settle here?  Because that is what we are doing.

You agree with healthcare tourism and 9 month pregnant women arriving here and giving birth, with the deliberate intention of being able to settle?

I would love to yes, and I hate borders as much as the next guy, but the reality is no investment is being put into the NHS, schools, transport or housing.

No other country allows people in with HIV or no skills without sponsorship.

Why should I pay with my taxes and inflated rent to for the utopian dream of a political crusading class, that, in reality only want to exploit the poor and drive down wages so that a few can benefit massively?

I do think stories like the £600k a week to foreign benefit claimants living in the EU are overblown, for example, they pretty much get the same from the Polish government, who support their kids right through university.  However the fact that we give them money in EU funding to do so, is what I disagree with, together with the fact that the low skilled take more than they contribute in taxes is a fact on record, as they have to claim tax credits to survive.

I'm not against open borders, I just think if we have them, we should abolish the benefits system entirely, including housing benefit and marriage allowance, JSA and child benefit, increase the minimum wage, invest in the infrastructure first, so it can handle the numbers and put a huge tax on multiple home ownership. 

However that will never happen, we are loving with a system that was supposed to only take 2000 to 3000 net migrants a year under Blair, the reality is however that the population is increasing by a million people, every four years, all due to net migration and it is not sustainable in the present form.  there are only part time jobs, no houses, no midwives and large school classes.

A true conservative party looks after the self employed and rewards those that work hard..  IN the UK, the only way to survive these days is bend the system or invest, you get jack shit for working your arse off and showing initiative and that is wrong and has given birth to a culture of uselessness and greed at both ends of the socio-economic scale, without recourse or moral obligation.

I prefer the American system, you get paid four times what I earn in my field here in the UK, houses are cheaper and income, States, City and local taxes and private healthcare cover is about the same as income tax, council tax and NI.  But the key point is that basic living expenses are cheaper and if you show initiative and work hard, you can still reap the rewards.

In the UK, on the one hand we have had a succession of pro EU, liberal governments, that are telling us that one day I will soon be able to relocate to the Alps in Bulgaria and get exactly the same level of healthcare, schooling and pension provision, housing and goods at a similar price point....in theory....if I stick with it, yet on the other hand, even on a national level, the hypocrisy of what is actually happening, that the economy is becoming more and more centralised and focused around only London, as is pay, which is weighted only around the wealthy and investors, whilst the working man can't even afford to put a roof over his head working two jobs, is seemingly overlooked.  No one else matters it seems..

UKIP are only speaking a few home truths that people with their head stuck up their arse seem to deny. 

I don't see a Utopian EU benefitted the working man.  All I see is a bunch of unelected, self appointed Eurocrats protecting their arses, affording themselves large pay deals and the wealthy benefitting from massive inflation, whilst pay remains stagnant and worker exploitation is at an all time high, all whilst Europe and it's people go down the toilet.

I am not prepared to suffer a shitty living for the whole of my lifetime just so a utopian European system, that may or may not work can really evolve in 60 or 100 years time and times can eventually equalise and get good for everyone, whilst in the meantime, it's the economy remains an investors dream to sap suck the working man and living standards deteriorate massively.  Sorry, I don't believe in reincarnation.  Call me nationalist or protectionist or whatever you like.  I am voting UKIP.

 

Phil_aka_Pip

Eloquently put, @Sambostar, in a manner that I could not achieve.

UnclePsychosis

Immigrants have a proven net benefit to the British economy and millions of Brits have also exercised their rights to live elsewhere. The idea that we're losing out from immigration is laughable.

Still, I'm sure that you UKIP boys aren't troubled by pesky things like facts. In my experience UKIP supporters seem to have a fairly tenuous grip on reality as it is.

What was it UKIP claimed again? *Over half* the population of Bulgaria was moving here? LOL

These are the brainiacs who are going to "save the uk" apparently...the daily mash really did nail it when they said "UKIP are attracting people who have rejected mainstream politics and basic intelligence".

p90fool

It's true, immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy, ie, they put in more than they take out.

Everything else is pure emotion/nationalism/racism/whatever. We NEED immigration to be a successful economy, so anyone who's instinctively and emotionally against it really needs a moment of self-examination.

And a good kicking.

chillidoggy

Try living in Margate.

Jalapeno

Sambostar said:

A true conservative party looks after the self employed and rewards those that work hard..  IN the UK, the only way to survive these days is bend the system or invest, you get jack shit for working your arse off and showing initiative and that is wrong and has given birth to a culture of uselessness and greed at both ends of the socio-economic scale, without recourse or moral obligation.

This.  In spades.  Have a Wisdom !

Drew_TNBD

UnclePsychosis said:

Immigrants have a proven net benefit to the British economy and millions of Brits have also exercised their rights to live elsewhere. The idea that we're losing out from immigration is laughable.

Still, I'm sure that you UKIP boys aren't troubled by pesky things like facts. In my experience UKIP supporters seem to have a fairly tenuous grip on reality as it is.

What was it UKIP claimed again? *Over half* the population of Bulgaria was moving here? LOL

These are the brainiacs who are going to "save the uk" apparently...the daily mash really did nail it when they said "UKIP are attracting people who have rejected mainstream politics and basic intelligence".

Dude I agree with you in the main, but for fucksake!! Stop being a cunt all the time and talking down to people. POST FACTS... don't be an arsehole.

UnclePsychosis

My opinion of UKIP is so low that I find it impossible to be more measured when discussing them.

Utterly reprehensible bunch of pricks.

Drew_TNBD

UnclePsychosis said:

My opinion of UKIP is so low that I find it impossible to be more measured when discussing them.

Utterly reprehensible bunch of pricks.

No mate. You did it all throughout the Scottish Independence threads as well. You might need to analyse your arguing style, because all you've done here is make Sam become more entrenched in his views, and you've made people like me - people interested in facts, statistics, and evidence - you've made them despair at the lack of critical thinking skills being deployed here.

Sambostar

 http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.38

 

If UKIP get in do you really think that they will stop the highly skilled from the EU or worldwide from working here?

Also the 'Net contribution' doesn't factor in healthcare, schooling, declining living conditions and quality of life.

I know I will never win with the UKIP haters.

I am pro immigration, but just feel it should be planned for, that we should sort out our own long term unemployed first and we should measure our economy by quality of life, not by finances and we should limit the number of people here, according to the provision for them.  Because finances can mean anything and statistics skewed to show anything.

I don't feel the economic benefits of mass immigration personally.  I feel it is just an excuse to get employees, including skilled employees on the cheap and boost the financial services and housing sector.

If you take economic statistics as your bible, then according to the average Salary in the UK, people should be doing very well indeed.  No problems here then.  Of course, modal salaries and the hours worked are never mentioned.

Now if the statistics are to be believed, that EU migrants do contribute positively overall but us native Brits and not EEA immigrants do not, then surely, by inviting in more EU migrants and thus displacing more Brits,  any economic benefits gained will be counter productive?  Especially so. given the fact that the economy is not in fact growing.  So for every four part time or zero hours job created, a full time job, that provide a secure income and a mortgage is lost.

UKIP haters fail to factor these facts into their equations and just blame the Brits for being workshy.  But the whole employment market should be looked at overall, as a package of native and migrants when analysing the benefits for mass immigration and this isn't done.  Because frankly, the liberal parties presenting the statistics are prejudice.

Sambostar

I'm not entrenched in my views at all.  I agree UKIP are a bunch of farcical idiots and incompetent Tory defectors and have attracted many undesirable groups.  But I will still vote for them, because the system needs a wake up and honestly, given that big business really runs any economy, I don't believe they will be any worse than the rest. 

Also people don't know what they got till it's gone, so how can that be a bad thing in enlivening this islands consciousness.

The way it is going at the moment we will go to war from within.  It is going to get worse whatever way you look at it, better sooner than later I say. Get it done.

I want to suffer with my boots on, still grasping on to a notion of freedom, not in locked away and emasculated in some PC dungeon, with all my responsibilities taken away, without a vote, whilst others speak for me and do evil deeds which are apparently on my behalf.

The ginger militia is ready and we have attracted many Muslim members who have defected from extremist Islamic groups, which feature in the IS Daily and the pitchforks are sharpened. 

Bring it on.

UnclePsychosis

Sambostar;376681" said:

I'm not entrenched in my views at all.  I agree UKIP are a bunch of farcical idiots and incompetent Tory defectors and have attracted many undesirable groups.  But I will still vote for them, because the system needs a wake up and honestly, given that big business really runs any economy, I don't believe they will be any worse than the rest.

Thing is, UKIP aren't a "wake up". They want regression, to take the UK back to the 1950s, not try anything new or different. They're desperately trying to put a genie back in a bottle and go back to the "good old days" - its impossible.

Leaving the EU would utterly cripple those big businesses. It's a horrid idea.

If you want a party that offer something different that aren't driven by xenophobia then try the greens. They have far more interesting social policy than the usual suspects. No longer are the greens solely driven by hippy trippy tree hugging.

Sambostar

Yeah but if I vote Green, I may as well throw my vote away and the Tories will get in again.

Also if you think Farage will cripple the UK economy, or try and take us back to the 1950's then you obviously the type who believed every word of Nick Clegg's and David Cameron's pre election speech.

Tell me, what did Clegg do that was in his manifesto?  In fact where is he these days?

And how many pre election pledges did the Tories break within the first week of office? All of them?.....hmmmm

Drew_TNBD

UnclePsychosis said:

If you want a party that offer something different that aren't driven by xenophobia then try the greens. They have far more interesting social policy than the usual suspects. No longer are the greens solely driven by hippy trippy tree hugging.

The heads are practitioners of homeopathy, they're profoundly anti-science. The greens are probably the least worthwhile party to vote for imho.

scrumhalf

Anyone who believes anything in an election manifesto (other than the page numbers) is a fool.

Government is about papering over the cracks until the next election campaign comes around, trying to deal with unforseen calamities as they unfold.

Sambostar

We are on track to become the second biggest economy in the EU.  Germany, the machine of Europe relies solely on exports for it's economic prosperity, it has no domestic market.  Europe and the world economy is taking a dive.  Worse is to come, the writing is on the wall.

Phil_aka_Pip

UnclePsychosis said:

Leaving the EU would utterly cripple those big businesses. It's a horrid idea.

Except that the EU has managed to cripple its own EuroZone and only people like you can't see that "more of the same" is not a remedy for the shit that's already gone down. I'll vote for a free trade area any day, but you can take political integration and shove it as far as you can till it makes you scream.

UnclePsychosis

At some point people have to realise that you have to vote for what you want, not what you don't want. British politics would be so much better if people stopped tactical voting and started actually engaging with parties who genuinely represent their hopes and beliefs.

Choosing who to vote for because "I don't want the Tories" is ultimately completely self defeating. You're never going to be happy.

Politics can be different. Just look at Scotland - the big three are running scared and no UKIP in sight.

I've lost count of the number of people who've told me "I would vote Green but it's just a waste". Maybe if you all actually vote for who you really want then they'd actually have a chance?

Sambostar

I want everyone in the whole world to be on the level.  Mutual obligation and mutual respect and equal quality of life.  That is what I want.  However I am not prepared to fight to the death, in the ensuing anarchy with everyone who disagrees with it however.

Also what you want and what you think should be done are different things.  Most people want all the riches in the world and want to protect their own at other expense.  This is the problem and why we have the problems of what we get when people vote for what they want, rather than what they think we need.