Guitar prices, sausage rolls.

robgilmo

I like sausage rolls, this got me thinking.

Guitar prices, lets look at Fender and Gibson, both have been making guitars for ages. Both are very good at it. Production costs are probably nailed by now. So, why does one model cost stupid money compared to another? Gibson especially, they are all made out of mahogony, so finish is different, pick ups different, but the cost difference between poly and nitro in a production environment cant be that much, the cost to wind two different types of pickup cant be that much. So what is it?

Sausage rolls, I like sausage rolls, the difference between a decent top quality pack of sausage rolls and a cheapo pack is about 99p.

BluesLover

They charge what the market will bear. 
It's nothing to do with manufacturing cost plus a bit of profit equals selling price.
It's about pitching your price to balance supply and demand, to maximise profit.
Prices are set according to what the customer will pay.

thecolourbox

I dunno, we bought some sausage rolls from M&S at Christmas and whilst they were nice (i'm not normally a fan), they were about £7 for a packet, whereas a similar sized pack in Sainsburys seems to be £2. I guess I bought the murphy labs sosig rolls

Musical_Mystery_Tour

Anyone who thinks Gibson and Fender sell guitars, is entirely mistaken; what they do, is sell dreams.

I have a cheap Fazley Midas guitar, which is a Gold Top clone. It looks fab, plays great and sounds great; it cost me 123 quid, delivered, in less than four days. It's just as good if not better than some of my Gibsons. But what it does not have, is a Gibson logo on the end of it. I could not care less about that which is why I bought it; none of my Gibsons and Fenders sound better or play better for having that logo on the end of them, but fortunately for Gibson and Fender, lots of people think that does make them sound better and it certainly makes them feel better about it to suppose that is the case.

That Fazley has a Mahogany neck and body, so it's definitely not the cost of the wood. The price difference between a cheap pot and a decent one is buttons for a large manufacturer, so that's not it either and even if it was you could switch them out for peanuts yourself. Pretty much every guitar these days is made on the same CNC cutting machines, so it's not that either and that of course means Gibson, Fender, Epiphone, Squier, Jet, Fazley, Donner, Glarry and Harley Benton guitars are all cut to exactly the same tolerances and fit together just as well as one another.

The most obvious sign that is the case is how you can get a one hundred quid guitar with a set neck these days, whereas thirty-five years ago, a cheap Les Paul copy with a set neck was just not a thing; they all had screw on necks because the tolerances can be much slacker on that construction method (Leo Fender knew that back in 1947); that's what CNC has done for us. It's why you don't have to 'run in' a car engine these days, the parts all fit together nicely. A global market helps too of course.

I look forward to the instalment of the Terminator movie series where someone from the Gibson marketing department goes back in time to kill the designer of the CNC machine.

Paint is paint, it used to be used to cover a multitude of loose tolerance sins on cheap copies, but these days that's not necessary, so it isn't that either. Abalone versus mother-of-toilet-seat fretboard inlays will be a difference in cost, but it's only going to make a huge difference on something with a lot of blingy inlaying going on, so that's not it either.

One thing which is a difference though, is machine heads. Precision-made machine heads as opposed to the commonplace die-cast ones you find on cheap copies do cost quite a bit more to make. However, even that's probably only a fifty quid (tops) difference for a manufacturer. Also true for bridges. So what does that leave?

A large part of it is market placement, and some of it is logistics. The Gibson Les Paul Standard and the American-made Stratocaster are 'dad's dream guitar', played by his heroes, aimed squarely at his equity release disposable income, for what will most likely spend the majority of its time as a man cave wall-hanger/occasional pub rocker.

 But even if none of that was true, though produced in some volume, something like that fancy Gibson still can't be churned out and exported in the kind of volumes that a 200 quid Chinese clone is, whereby hundreds of them get knocked up for probably less than fifty quid in total, then get jammed into a shipping container by the thousand and shipped over to Europe where the transport cost per unit ends up being a couple of quid and they then fly off the Ebay, Bax, Thomann etc, warehouse shelves rapidly, where even they are the bargain basement version of that same dream.

Back with your sausages, in marketing there is a saying -  'sell the sizzle, not the sausage', and that's precisely what Gibson and Fender do. It's exactly what all that 'signature model' bollocks is about.

Svartmetall

thecolourbox said:

I dunno, we bought some sausage rolls from M&S at Christmas and whilst they were nice (i'm not normally a fan), they were about £7 for a packet, whereas a similar sized pack in Sainsburys seems to be £2. I guess I bought the murphy labs sosig rolls

Years ago Sainsbury's did sausage rolls with English mustard in them, and they were amazing...they never brought those back though  

DrBob

The sausage rolls at Tebay services are the gold(top)standard. Waitrose used to do a Toulouse sausage roll that was also incredible. I don’t know what, if any bearing this has on this conversation 

carlos

Musical_Mystery_Tour said:

Anyone who thinks Gibson and Fender sell guitars, is entirely mistaken; what they do, is sell dreams.

I have a cheap Fazley Midas guitar, which is a Gold Top clone. It looks fab, plays great and sounds great; it cost me 123 quid, delivered, in less than four days. It's just as good if not better than some of my Gibsons. But what it does not have, is a Gibson logo on the end of it. I could not care less about that which is why I bought it; none of my Gibsons and Fenders sound better or play better for having that logo on the end of them, but fortunately for Gibson and Fender, lots of people think that does make them sound better and it certainly makes them feel better about it to suppose that is the case.

That Fazley has a Mahogany neck and body, so it's definitely not the cost of the wood. The price difference between a cheap pot and a decent one is buttons for a large manufacturer, so that's not it either and even if it was you could switch them out for peanuts yourself. Pretty much every guitar these days is made on the same CNC cutting machines, so it's not that either and that of course means Gibson, Fender, Epiphone, Squier, Jet, Fazley, Donner, Glarry and Harley Benton guitars are all cut to exactly the same tolerances and fit together just as well as one another.

The most obvious sign that is the case is how you can get a one hundred quid guitar with a set neck these days, whereas thirty-five years ago, a cheap Les Paul copy with a set neck was just not a thing; they all had screw on necks because the tolerances can be much slacker on that construction method (Leo Fender knew that back in 1947); that's what CNC has done for us. It's why you don't have to 'run in' a car engine these days, the parts all fit together nicely. A global market helps too of course.

I look forward to the instalment of the Terminator movie series where someone from the Gibson marketing department goes back in time to kill the designer of the CNC machine.

Paint is paint, it used to be used to cover a multitude of loose tolerance sins on cheap copies, but these days that's not necessary, so it isn't that either. Abalone versus mother-of-toilet-seat fretboard inlays will be a difference in cost, but it's only going to make a huge difference on something with a lot of blingy inlaying going on, so that's not it either.

One thing which is a difference though, is machine heads. Precision-made machine heads as opposed to the commonplace die-cast ones you find on cheap copies do cost quite a bit more to make. However, even that's probably only a fifty quid (tops) difference for a manufacturer. Also true for bridges. So what does that leave?

A large part of it is market placement, and some of it is logistics. The Gibson Les Paul Standard and the American-made Stratocaster are 'dad's dream guitar', played by his heroes, aimed squarely at his equity release disposable income, for what will most likely spend the majority of its time as a man cave wall-hanger/occasional pub rocker.

 But even if none of that was true, though produced in some volume, something like that fancy Gibson still can't be churned out and exported in the kind of volumes that a 200 quid Chinese clone is, whereby hundreds of them get knocked up for probably less than fifty quid in total, then get jammed into a shipping container by the thousand and shipped over to Europe where the transport cost per unit ends up being a couple of quid and they then fly off the Ebay, Bax, Thomann etc, warehouse shelves rapidly, where even they are the bargain basement version of that same dream.

Back with your sausages, in marketing there is a saying -  'sell the sizzle, not the sausage', and that's precisely what Gibson and Fender do. It's exactly what all that 'signature model' bollocks is about.

Now I'm GASsing for a Fazley. Their range has grown a lot since I last looked. Some tasty ones there.

maltingsaudio

So are Squire and Epiphone the equivalent of Greggs vegan sausage rolls? Would add MrsM makes fantastic veggie sausage rolls

tomajoha

thecolourbox said:

I dunno, we bought some sausage rolls from M&S at Christmas and whilst they were nice (i'm not normally a fan), they were about £7 for a packet, whereas a similar sized pack in Sainsburys seems to be £2. I guess I bought the murphy labs sosig rolls

Was the pastry especially flakey? 

nero1701

I once made sausage rolls with a mix of sausage meat and black pudding, was awesome!

Funkfingers

It's Only Sausage Roll (But I Like It).

grappagreen

To expand on a comment already made.

Cost of sale has nothing to do with selling price. The Corporation’s goals are maximise value. Two ways to achieve this - minimise CoS and maximise sale price. 

But if a product is ostensibly the same as another, the challenge becomes how do we maximise sale price? Here’s where things have become very sophisticated.

As stated already, when we buy certain brands we are buying a dream, fulfilling an aspiration blah blah. This aspiration however was largely placed in our minds by said business..

I’m obviously not referring to sausage rolls here

SlopeSoarer

NSRD... 

SlopeSoarer

In seriousness you are right @robgilmo! Buy something decent like a Vintage Harley Fazley and spend the rest on guitar lessons rather than dreaming!

DuploLicks

I had a haggis-sausage roll in Edinburgh. I enjoyed it but I couldn’t eat them all the time. Definitely something to only bring out on certain occasions 

thebreeze

A bakery near me sell single sausage rolls at £4 a pop.  Damn good though.  Now I can’t really go back to the cheap ones, they’re just not the same thing at all.  The same thing may have happened with me and guitars.

Musical_Mystery_Tour

grappagreen said:

As stated already, when we buy certain brands we are buying a dream, fulfilling an aspiration blah blah. This aspiration however was largely placed in our minds by said companies

Whilst that is true, it is also perpetuated by peer groups. A case in point would be when people on guitar forums support such notions, for example when people go on about the headstock end shape on Gibsons versus Epiphones.

How many people are actually that bothered by that difference aesthetically as opposed to from a snobbery stand point?

Don't get me wrong, there are some three a side headstock shapes which I think are feck ugly - Harvey Benton and Vintage for example - but when it comes to Gibson and Epiphone, I like both of them just as much as much as one another and couldn't give a crap about what Gibson or anyone else would prefer me to favour.

breakstuff

My wife makes her own sausage rolls and adds a bit of sage and onion stuffing to the sausage meat. Very nice they are too.

The sausage roll equivalent of putting new pickups in a Harley Benton.

TheMarlin

Mars Bars is where it’s at. 

Not for eating (I’m not big on chocolate) but for calculating real prices.  It’s actually a real scientific thing. 

A mars bar is a good indicator of real prices, as it’s generally the same level of affordability through time (and has been around since 1920’s. 

So numbers of mars bars in a Les Paul in 1959 vs equivalent model today will tell you if it’s more of less expensive over time. 

A Les Paul was very much a luxury item back then, so I’m guessing they’re cheaper now (in mars bars) 

ToneControl

Musical_Mystery_Tour said:

Anyone who thinks Gibson and Fender sell guitars, is entirely mistaken; what they do, is sell dreams.

I have a cheap Fazley Midas guitar, which is a Gold Top clone. It looks fab, plays great and sounds great; it cost me 123 quid, delivered, in less than four days. It's just as good if not better than some of my Gibsons. But what it does not have, is a Gibson logo on the end of it. I could not care less about that which is why I bought it; none of my Gibsons and Fenders sound better or play better for having that logo on the end of them, but fortunately for Gibson and Fender, lots of people think that does make them sound better and it certainly makes them feel better about it to suppose that is the case.

That Fazley has a Mahogany neck and body, so it's definitely not the cost of the wood. The price difference between a cheap pot and a decent one is buttons for a large manufacturer, so that's not it either and even if it was you could switch them out for peanuts yourself. Pretty much every guitar these days is made on the same CNC cutting machines, so it's not that either and that of course means Gibson, Fender, Epiphone, Squier, Jet, Fazley, Donner, Glarry and Harley Benton guitars are all cut to exactly the same tolerances and fit together just as well as one another.

The most obvious sign that is the case is how you can get a one hundred quid guitar with a set neck these days, whereas thirty-five years ago, a cheap Les Paul copy with a set neck was just not a thing; they all had screw on necks because the tolerances can be much slacker on that construction method (Leo Fender knew that back in 1947); that's what CNC has done for us. It's why you don't have to 'run in' a car engine these days, the parts all fit together nicely. A global market helps too of course.

I look forward to the instalment of the Terminator movie series where someone from the Gibson marketing department goes back in time to kill the designer of the CNC machine.

Paint is paint, it used to be used to cover a multitude of loose tolerance sins on cheap copies, but these days that's not necessary, so it isn't that either. Abalone versus mother-of-toilet-seat fretboard inlays will be a difference in cost, but it's only going to make a huge difference on something with a lot of blingy inlaying going on, so that's not it either.

One thing which is a difference though, is machine heads. Precision-made machine heads as opposed to the commonplace die-cast ones you find on cheap copies do cost quite a bit more to make. However, even that's probably only a fifty quid (tops) difference for a manufacturer. Also true for bridges. So what does that leave?

A large part of it is market placement, and some of it is logistics. The Gibson Les Paul Standard and the American-made Stratocaster are 'dad's dream guitar', played by his heroes, aimed squarely at his equity release disposable income, for what will most likely spend the majority of its time as a man cave wall-hanger/occasional pub rocker.

 But even if none of that was true, though produced in some volume, something like that fancy Gibson still can't be churned out and exported in the kind of volumes that a 200 quid Chinese clone is, whereby hundreds of them get knocked up for probably less than fifty quid in total, then get jammed into a shipping container by the thousand and shipped over to Europe where the transport cost per unit ends up being a couple of quid and they then fly off the Ebay, Bax, Thomann etc, warehouse shelves rapidly, where even they are the bargain basement version of that same dream.

Back with your sausages, in marketing there is a saying -  'sell the sizzle, not the sausage', and that's precisely what Gibson and Fender do. It's exactly what all that 'signature model' bollocks is about.

This is mostly true, except that the £100 Thomanns aren't quite a match for Gibson. However the £300-£400 ones are.
I bought a few during lockdown.

The way some brands price things is amazing to watch: look at Louis Vuitton handbags for £1400. That company is mssive now, the owner is currently the richest person in the world Bernard Arnault - Wikipedia

I remember 10 years ago, and old friend came round, his 11-12 year old son was learning guitar, I showed them my single-cut, a David Thomas McNaught (they are $4500+ new), similar to this one. He's a one-man band rival to PRS I think. AN amazing instrument
First question I was asked was "Is it a Gibson?" That was a lesson in the power of branding.

ToneControl

btw  the Thomann top-of the range traditional strats and teles, around £150 are very impressive when set up,