£8500 for a telecaster? REALLY?

Philly_Q

Paul_C said:

An £8.5K Tele is meant for someone who can afford to spend that much on a guitar and not care, knowing that they are better than everyone else because of that.

That's a sweeping statement and unfair.

It's no different from buying expensive clothes, shoes, watches or cars, or getting your kitchen refitted, or going on an exotic holiday, or eating at a fancy restaurant. 

In all those cases there are significantly cheaper options which "do the job" just as well, but does that mean anyone who buys anything above the most basic price level thinks they're "better than everyone else"?  Of course it doesn't.  Sometimes people just like to buy "nice things".  If they want to pay 10 times as much for something that's only 50% "better", it's their choice.

fretmeister

A P bass only has 1 pickup and no switch. It's even more simple!

That's about £9850 + vat. 

guyinlyon

dazzajl said:

Doesn’t really matter if anyone buys it for that. Just the list price helps to reinforce that these guitars are highest value. It’s definitely not what the tele was designed to be though 

If Leo Fender could have gotten the then-equivalent of £8500 for a Telecaster he probably would have.

He was nothing if not a businessman.

mo6020

I have a Jason Smith Masterbuilt strat that I bought when I was in the market for a teambuilt strat. I bought it because it happened to have the exact specs I wanted, barely any relic job, and absolutely sung when I played it. 

It was more than I was intending to spend, but also I was in the market for a high end vintage spec Strat to try and curb my lust for an actual pre-CBS strat. I'm not allowing myself to buy a real one until I find one that plays better than my MS copy...

From a price perspective, I could afford it without having to shuffle money around or go short, so why not?  It's still cheaper than the real '63s I was looking at...

OilCityPickups

guyinlyon said:

dazzajl said:

Doesn’t really matter if anyone buys it for that. Just the list price helps to reinforce that these guitars are highest value. It’s definitely not what the tele was designed to be though 

If Leo Fender could have gotten the then-equivalent of £8500 for a Telecaster he probably would have.

He was nothing if not a businessman.

Adjusted for inflation a Tele cost £3,665.94 in February 1951 (approx £141 then) ... of course they were not particularly mass produced at the time as the 'production lone' was only just over a year old. 
In 1951 the average weekly wage was £6.00 so a Tele was nearly 6 months wages ... if you could even get one in the UK 

rockmonster

OilCityPickups said:

guyinlyon said:

dazzajl said:

Doesn’t really matter if anyone buys it for that. Just the list price helps to reinforce that these guitars are highest value. It’s definitely not what the tele was designed to be though 

If Leo Fender could have gotten the then-equivalent of £8500 for a Telecaster he probably would have.

He was nothing if not a businessman.

Adjusted for inflation a Tele cost £3,665.94 in February 1951 (approx £141 then) ... of course they were not particularly mass produced at the time as the 'production lone' was only just over a year old. 
In 1951 the average weekly wage was £6.00 so a Tele was nearly 6 months wages ... if you could even get one in the UK 

I don’t doubt that especially back in those days they were labour intensive. Nowadays they are CNC machined and only hand finished in fact if they are? I don’t know. Surely the cost of manufacture is peanuts now by comparison even taking in the investment of technology?

darthed1981

OilCityPickups said:

guyinlyon said:

dazzajl said:

Doesn’t really matter if anyone buys it for that. Just the list price helps to reinforce that these guitars are highest value. It’s definitely not what the tele was designed to be though 

If Leo Fender could have gotten the then-equivalent of £8500 for a Telecaster he probably would have.

He was nothing if not a businessman.

Adjusted for inflation a Tele cost £3,665.94 in February 1951 (approx £141 then) ... of course they were not particularly mass produced at the time as the 'production lone' was only just over a year old. 
In 1951 the average weekly wage was £6.00 so a Tele was nearly 6 months wages ... if you could even get one in the UK 

Of course this is fairly fluid as...

Inflation over time includes massive changes that don't affect guitars (housing costs, for example).
Somebody invented CNC machines in the meantime, 
Americans in the 1950s were ludicrously wealthier than Brits.

But of course that doesn't really matter.

I have two Teles personally, one an HB that cost me £140, one a Squier CV that cost me about £350... both are just fine.

If I had 8.5k lying about and nothing else to spend it on... would I buy an 8.5k Telecaster?  No... I'd probably budget upto 2k for a nice guitar treat and save the rest.

Should everyone be like me?  Fuck no!

Some people are rolling in cash and have seven figure bank balances - ultimately - it's these types who 8.5k teles are for, more power to them.

I'd say the more egregious sin by Fender and Gibson is deciding that they want to take their everyday lines out of the reach of the everyday person... 1k Epiphones and Mexican Teles for £750??  I'd say those kind of price rises are worse than these silly one off things for the super rich.

guitars4you

I'm kind of baffled by a lot of the comments above and in particular claims that it is only 2 pieces of wood screwed together

Going to try and keep this as simple as possible - I'm going to quickly compare the price of this Masterbuilt model v a similar grade of UK luthier built guitar, on more of a like v like basis

That guitar, hi-lighted in the initial posting, is £8500 and has a built in vat level of £1417 - So the cost of the guitar is £7083 - Still expensive I know - But now take away the dealers margin and that guitar now costs around £5300 - I don't have the exact figures to hand but suspect around £300 to cover shipping from the USA and appropriate import duty and that guitar now costs £5000 - Of course we don't know the level of profit built into that figure of £5000 that Fender charge but we all know it will be considerably higher than the level of profit applied to the price from our UK luthier

I'm not saying the UK luthier built guitar is better, same, or worse, but think it is fair to say, that most of us would accept the actual grade of materials, build quality, tonal character and playability  to be not to far away from each other - But the UK luthier probably is not charging vat (some will some won't) - they certainly are not paying import duty and global shipping - Certainly not paying a dealer to handle the sale - And even if they are charging vat, they are paying it on a value that is probably around 50/60 % lower so a considerable saving of vat  

I'm guessing that £2500 - £3000 is the price charged for many/most quality UK Luthier built model - So yes it is still cheaper than a like for like basis of the £5000 charged by Fender - But far closer than maybe we initially look at it 

Now we know you can't get such a Fender for £5000 - As the route to market does mean that sadly is a £8500 guitar - But equally if the UK Luthier grow their business and adapted a similar process then their £2500/3000 would suddenly be around £4000/4800

guitars4you

OilCityPickups said:

guyinlyon said:

dazzajl said:

Doesn’t really matter if anyone buys it for that. Just the list price helps to reinforce that these guitars are highest value. It’s definitely not what the tele was designed to be though 

If Leo Fender could have gotten the then-equivalent of £8500 for a Telecaster he probably would have.

He was nothing if not a businessman.

Adjusted for inflation a Tele cost £3,665.94 in February 1951 (approx £141 then) ... of course they were not particularly mass produced at the time as the 'production lone' was only just over a year old. 
In 1951 the average weekly wage was £6.00 so a Tele was nearly 6 months wages ... if you could even get one in the UK 

Ave UK wage in 2023 was around £35K - weekly that is £673 or monthly £2916 - £8500 divide by £2916 is a shade under 3 months - Therefore considerably more affordable now for a 'similar grade of guitar' v 1951

mo6020

guitars4you said:

I'm kind of baffled by a lot of the comments above and in particular claims that it is only 2 pieces of wood screwed together

Going to try and keep this as simple as possible - I'm going to quickly compare the price of this Masterbuilt model v a similar grade of UK luthier built guitar, on more of a like v like basis

That guitar, hi-lighted in the initial posting, is £8500 and has a built in vat level of £1417 - So the cost of the guitar is £7083 - Still expensive I know - But now take away the dealers margin and that guitar now costs around £5300 - I don't have the exact figures to hand but suspect around £300 to cover shipping from the USA and appropriate import duty and that guitar now costs £5000 - Of course we don't know the level of profit built into that figure of £5000 that Fender charge but we all know it will be considerably higher than the level of profit applied to the price from our UK luthier

I'm not saying the UK luthier built guitar is better, same, or worse, but think it is fair to say, that most of us would accept the actual grade of materials, build quality, tonal character and playability  to be not to far away from each other - But the UK luthier probably is not charging vat (some will some won't) - they certainly are not paying import duty and global shipping - Certainly not paying a dealer to handle the sale - And even if they are charging vat, they are paying it on a value that is probably around 50/60 % lower so a considerable saving of vat  

I'm guessing that £2500 - £3000 is the price charged for many/most quality UK Luthier built model - So yes it is still cheaper than a like for like basis of the £5000 charged by Fender - But far closer than maybe we initially look at it 

Now we know you can't get such a Fender for £5000 - As the route to market does mean that sadly is a £8500 guitar - But equally if the UK Luthier grow their business and adapted a similar process then their £2500/3000 would suddenly be around £4000/4800

I thought about writing a similar post on GTM costs, but you've saved me the effort.

There are UK luthiers selling their, also incredible guitars, for around the £5k mark, so I don't baulk at the Fender pricing too much, personally. 

CountryDave

If you can afford it, why not?

If you pick it up and have an ‘Excalibur’ moment. The specs are what you want, the colour is perfect, the first chord sounds like a choir of angels and you can get the sounds you want. Why not?

For the record, I can’t afford it and am extremely happy with what I have. Given a lottery win………. I’d be talking to Neil Ivison. 

guitars4you

So moving on from my post above and comments that it is 2 bits of wood screwed together - Maybe it is - But let's look at a simple economic scale of production and running a business

We have many fine UK luthiers - I'm sure all/most are earning less than a 6 digit wage each year - I'm sure none are receiving a company pension, entitled to holiday pay, sick pay, maternity leave - I'm sure most/all are not driving around in a nice/new-ish German motor and living in a country mansion with a drive in/out gravel drive - I'm assuming they love their job and I dare say 9-5 doesn't reflect their day to day work 

Equally they are proud of their work and reputation - But let's say they are getting more orders and would like to move from making/selling 50 guitars a year and now wish to make/sell 100 guitars a year - First issue is they can't work twice as many hours - Secondly they can't make the same guitar twice as quickly - As such they now need to bring in some help - Chances are they will find a junior they can train up, or indeed a fellow luthier that can take on board specific tasks - They will off course not want any reduction in build quality and attention to detail - That reputation they earned on their own needs to be integral to a 'larger' run of sales - But this employed hand will automatically ensure additional costs, most by law - So £35000 to pay a colleague, along with NI bills, holiday pay, maybe pension contribution, maternity leave, sick pay etc etc - Chances are the paid help might earn more at times than the boss 

But that £35000 needs to be paid both by additional sales and/or additional profits - You could argue that if you now sell 100 guitars a year, then £35000 divide by 100, means each guitar now needs to carry an additional £350 cost to pay the hired hand - In reality you were already selling 50 without him, so in effect his contribution needs to be £35000 divide by 50 (ie the additional run he is contributing towards) - That is now an additional fee of £700 on each guitar 

Now I"m sure we can all agree, that the hired hand is equally skilled, as most of us are capable of being able to screw in 4 bolts on the back of the neck - Yet if that is all he does the cost of production has just shot up by £700 per guitar - The unit cost of materials to build the 'bolt-on Tele' will not have changed with regards to purchasing all the various materials 

Equally if I was employing a member of staff and paying him £35000 a year, then I would want something out of that as well - No use to being a busy fool - Making twice as many guitars yet my wage is still the same - The £35000 wage is a cost of business the same as rent/rates/lighting/heating etc etc - Likewise the cost of production includes overheads and appropriate wood/materials etc - As such if my new additional overheads of employment are £35000, in reality I want/need that to be charged out at £50K a year, so I make additional earnings for me within such a process - So in reality the additional cost to make an extra 50 guitars a year is no longer £700 but £1000 - So you now have to sell/make twice as many guitars and charge a £1000 extra for each guitar you sell - Might be a tough gig

guitars4you

Now let's move on to the USA and a guy to screw in 4 bolts - USA ave wage is around $77K a year - 6400 per month or 1480 per week - Need to add/include holiday pay, private health care 

But there is one big difference between the UK 'bolt screwer' working for a small luthier and the USA 'bolt screwer' working for Fender - In essence all but a few Fender Guitars contain a bolt on neck - So you have to employ  a bunch of 'bolt screwers' - But equally at Fender there are hundreds of staff that earn a wage but don't screw on the neck - Be it those that pack each guitar - Those that look after 'drying' the wood - The painter - The pick up winder -  The final QC - Those that look after the maintenance of the CNC and other machines - Then add to that all the office staff, be it running production schedules, ordering all the 'ingredients'  marketing, sales, after service inc spare parts and warranty claims etc - Then of course a host of directors and members of the board  - So that bolt screwer has to 'carry' a lot of additional staff

Then we need to add the huge increase of space required to run such a manufacturing process - From wood storage - Parts, cases, final qc, shipping and packing, plus off course all the ' glass towers' for the board/directors - Car park for staff, visitors and board etc etc etc etc

So whilst we can look very easily at the cost to employ a bolt screwer in the UK is around £35K - But working for a small luthier, the costs of the 'garden shed' or small lock up, is minuscule in comparison to the cost of employing 100's of USA bolt screwers - And each of these USA bolt screwers has to have built into his wage the costs associated as above in order to run the global empire called Fender  - So yes it is only a case of screwing in 4 bolts - But that is only a fraction of the total costs of production

So yes Fender may well be very clever and knowing what they can charge and inflate accordingly - But USA production costs are not cheap either

guitars4you

mo6020 said:

guitars4you said:

I'm kind of baffled by a lot of the comments above and in particular claims that it is only 2 pieces of wood screwed together

Going to try and keep this as simple as possible - I'm going to quickly compare the price of this Masterbuilt model v a similar grade of UK luthier built guitar, on more of a like v like basis

That guitar, hi-lighted in the initial posting, is £8500 and has a built in vat level of £1417 - So the cost of the guitar is £7083 - Still expensive I know - But now take away the dealers margin and that guitar now costs around £5300 - I don't have the exact figures to hand but suspect around £300 to cover shipping from the USA and appropriate import duty and that guitar now costs £5000 - Of course we don't know the level of profit built into that figure of £5000 that Fender charge but we all know it will be considerably higher than the level of profit applied to the price from our UK luthier

I'm not saying the UK luthier built guitar is better, same, or worse, but think it is fair to say, that most of us would accept the actual grade of materials, build quality, tonal character and playability  to be not to far away from each other - But the UK luthier probably is not charging vat (some will some won't) - they certainly are not paying import duty and global shipping - Certainly not paying a dealer to handle the sale - And even if they are charging vat, they are paying it on a value that is probably around 50/60 % lower so a considerable saving of vat  

I'm guessing that £2500 - £3000 is the price charged for many/most quality UK Luthier built model - So yes it is still cheaper than a like for like basis of the £5000 charged by Fender - But far closer than maybe we initially look at it 

Now we know you can't get such a Fender for £5000 - As the route to market does mean that sadly is a £8500 guitar - But equally if the UK Luthier grow their business and adapted a similar process then their £2500/3000 would suddenly be around £4000/4800

I thought about writing a similar post on GTM costs, but you've saved me the effort.

There are UK luthiers selling their, also incredible guitars, for around the £5k mark, so I don't baulk at the Fender pricing too much, personally. 

I don't want my post to be patronising - I'm sure many guys on FB understand the whole process - Some are already working in a serious industry, with nice big wages with associated responsibilities - But equally I feel many FB members either have forgotten or don't fully understand/appreciate what goes on behind the scene 

I've not even compared funding - Be it long term loans for buying production facilities/warehouse/HQ + CNC machine, modern spray booth's etc etc 

I'm sure we can say far more - But equally I believe all posts, whatever they are about, should be as short as possible - Otherwise we all get bored 

rockmonster

Bargain then!

mo6020

guitars4you said:

I'm sure we can say far more - But equally I believe all posts, whatever they are about, should be as short as possible - Otherwise we all get bored 

Very wise.

guitars4you

rockmonster said:

Bargain then!

I'm not saying £8500 is not cheap - I'm not even saying that the MB is far superior to a 'regular' CS model - I would certainly agree with most/all members that it is a case of diminishing returns - But that applies to many guitars and many other 'high street products' 

For an additional 10 penneth now from me, I would say that most CS are very good guitars - Often better to play than many 'original' vintage examples - Original examples and all the 'fraudulent' activity worries me about ever wanting/needing to buy such a guitar ever again - Add to that I'm not convinced that all/any MB examples are 'twice' as good as a CS yet the price is 2-1 - I'm not even convinced they are 10% better - But with CS and MB models you do find, amongst a host of good guitars, a few that somehow just possess more 'magical mojo' - Granted we can't describe what mojo actually is - But play it and it makes more sense what is going on 

On a blind fold test, if I'm actually playing the guitar, I'd be disappointed if I could not tell a good CS model (costing around 4K) over a regular USA Vintage/production model costing around 2K - Yet equally, on the same test, I'm sure I could not tell which is which between a 4K CS and an 8K MB - I could tell which I prefer, as we all could, but preferential doesn't actually mean 'better' 

mo6020

guitars4you said:

rockmonster said:

Bargain then!

I'm not saying £8500 is not cheap - I'm not even saying that the MB is far superior to a 'regular' CS model - I would certainly agree with most/all members that it is a case of diminishing returns - But that applies to many guitars and many other 'high street products' 

For an additional 10 penneth now from me, I would say that most CS are very good guitars - Often better to play than many 'original' vintage examples - Original examples and all the 'fraudulent' activity worries me about ever wanting/needing to buy such a guitar ever again - Add to that I'm not convinced that all/any MB examples are 'twice' as good as a CS yet the price is 2-1 - I'm not even convinced they are 10% better - But with CS and MB models you do find, amongst a host of good guitars, a few that somehow just possess more 'magical mojo' - Granted we can't describe what mojo actually is - But play it and it makes more sense what is going on 

On a blind fold test, if I'm actually playing the guitar, I'd be disappointed if I could not tell a good CS model (costing around 4K) over a regular USA Vintage/production model costing around 2K - Yet equally, on the same test, I'm sure I could not tell which is which between a 4K CS and an 8K MB - I could tell which I prefer, as we all could, but preferential doesn't actually mean 'better' 

FWIW my friend played my MB without knowing what it was and his response after about a minute was, "Wow, this thing is like a cheat code for playing guitar, what's going on with it?", which somewhat validated my feelings, too.

Then he said, "The action's too high, tho" 

chris78

GoldenEraGuitars said:

chris78 said:

Way way less stupid than vintage prices. 

CBS tele for 15k? https://www.atbguitars.com/1968-fender-telecaster-candy-apple-red-ohsc
Or how about approaching 50k? 

https://www.atbguitars.com/1953-fender-black-guard-telecaster-ohsc

I bet the masterbuilt plays better too…..

I know which one I’d rather buy though. 

Walk out of ATB with a 1968 tele and it’ll still be worth £15k, more so a year down the line.

Walk out of another shop with a Fender MB at £9k which is worth about £5-6k by the time you get home that same day. 

Live and let live, consumers have never had it so good. Don’t like the look of a £9k tele? Plenty of other options from a few hundred quid up. 

The 15k tele wouldn’t be worth 15 though would it? ATB will have their own mark up and even if you sold it back to them, I’d assume they’ll look to make 20-30% on it. 

My own guess is they’ve pushed the price too high on that particular one as well. It’s still a 68 rather than a 64/65 so whatever marketing spin, it’s not a pre-cbs tele. 

There is also medium to long term risk that the vintage boom dies on its arse.

Kurtis

Blueingreen said:

I’d imagine the market for this is mainly among people for whom £8K isn’t a lot of money.  The “you may as well fly first class, if you don’t your kids will” crowd. They’re not mad, and they don’t necessarily have more money than sense, they just don’t see the merit in saving a few grand by settling for something they don’t like as much, given that they’ll snuff it with a few million in the bank either way.

Exactly. 

There are folks on here that spend way more than I would ever think about spending on gear. I wouldn't say they are daft though.


Well....